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Comment by hn_throwaway_99 | Hacker News Reader

I wish someone would do a study on self-help books/materials, to see if they actually have ever helped anyone.

My issue is not that the advice they give is necessarily wrong, but it's that the format usually goes something like this:

1. Survey lots of "successful" people.

2. Identify common behaviors of these people.

3. Recommend that other people practice these behaviors.

I mean, just look at the title, "Never eat alone". I don't doubt that most successful people have a wide network and rarely eat by themselves. I just don't think that telling an introvert, or worse, someone who is painfully shy, that making them engage in a behavior that is naturally uncomfortable for them will lead to equivalent level of success. I kind of feel like it's the same as telling an alcoholic "stop drinking".

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> I just don't think that telling an introvert, or worse, someone who is painfully shy, that making them engage in a behavior that is naturally uncomfortable for them will lead to equivalent level of success. I kind of feel like it's the same as telling an alcoholic "stop drinking".

Half of the battle in many struggles is convincing the person that it’s possible to change their situation. Telling stories of people who succeeded in changing can be enough to show that the reader has some control.

Some people get stuck feeling as though everything in their life is purely the result of external factors out of their control. This leads to a sense of helplessness and no attempts to change the situation.

Some self-help books really are helpful at inspiring people to believe that they actually do have some, albeit usually not total, control over their situation. This can be enough of a nudge to get people making the changes they need to make to start moving in the right direction.

They’re not usually miracle fixes or one-shot solutions, but they can shake up the status quo and point the reader in the right direction. No self-help book would simply tell an alcoholic to “just stop drinking”, but they might provide steps for identifying triggers that lead to drinking, taking gradually more control and accountability for their consumption, and provide example success stories to show that people really can overcome alcoholism.

I think you provide a plausible theory for how some self help books help some situations.

But I agree with the GP that strong empirical data would be useful as well.

Personally I read the book years ago and found many pieces of actionable advice. For example after years of having very distinct friend groups, I started mixing them together and the result was great. Tons of small tips like that.

Yes you're right, this book isn't for a serious introvert. But Keith never claims it is? Writing a book for everyone leaves you with a book that's useful to no one.

If I write a book about compilers, maybe even mention my book will make someone a better programmer, I don't expect the frontend guys to complain it's not accessible to them. I honestly struggle to understand where this mindset comes from.

The marketing for self help books rarely seems to indicate who the target audience is, other than everyone. I imagine the blurb for your compiler book would not be "The book everyone needs to read to understand how to use a computer better."

Why would a publisher narrow its target purchasing demographic preemptively?

At the end of the day, the point is book sales, not to actually make you successful (even if that’s the effect for some small slice of the people who actually buy it).

I don’t know. Telling an alcoholic to “stop drinking” seems like pretty unambiguously directionally correct advice (albeit difficult to execute) in a way that “never eat alone” is not. In that way “never eat alone” is probably much worse advice.

Telling an alcoholic to "stop drinking" is also completely useless advice. How many alcoholics do you think are like "Oh wow, you're right, if only I had known that all along..."

This is why I tried to develop A-B.fit. The hard part is working out what messaging leads to good outcomes, not what actions.

"You're overweight", says the Doctor, "you need to eat less and move more." "No s*t Sherlock with my IQ of 147 I'd never managed to put that one together myself," I replied.

There are probably better ways to discuss the topic with someone trying to help you.

> There are probably better ways to discuss the topic with someone trying to help you.

There are definitely better ways to discuss the topic with someone you are trying to help.

Telling an alcoholic who knows they are one and is trying to recover to “stop drinking” is probably useless. There are numerous alcoholics who are some combination of unaware or in denial and for whom that advice is not (necessarily) useless.

Yeah, being unaware of your alcoholism doesn't make it any less influential on your behavior. If anything, telling someone who is in denial about their alcoholism to "stop drinking" seems like the most useless option.

This is Newhartian Technique. See the master at work:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Gjc6V4QaxIY

"never eat alone" is probably useful advice in the sense of "oh, i always eat alone, but this book says that successful people are doing literally the opposite of what i always do, maybe that means that there is a huge blind spot that i am missing, and that maybe i should try doing something to at least not miss that blind spot, and then i can decide what actions i need to take"

The person you're responding to was not saying that "stop drinking" is directionally incorrect, but that it was not helpful (that it will not lead to an equivalent level of success).

Oh, I observe this too. But when reading, you might come across a tidbit of information that might be useful. I am planning to follow it up with books in contrast: Deep Work and Quiet. You can think of a book as a buffet, and you pick and choose what is applicable and toss the rest.

The way how I meet people tend to be like, do something interesting then people contact me, simple formula, more introvert style.

In this case I think the title is just meant to be something provocative that will get you to take an interest in the book.

The actual book focuses more on the importance of networking and relationships.

I haven’t finished reading it myself yet, so I can’t say with 100% certainty, but so far it seems pretty clear that the author’s main intent is not to suggest that you should always eat with someone else.

You could do the same for anything that purports to help people: training centres, home schooling, higher education.

They'd all have the same result: works for some, not for others. Works better for those that put in the work, than for those that expect the product to do all the heavy lifting.

This critique of such books is covered in the book "The Halo Effect". It's a good book.

For a time a really was into reading business books like “From Good To Great”. “The Halo Effect” cured me of my addiction :)

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