And while the extracurriculars available are quite great, it is not a "daycare" and the rigors of education are very high.
And while the extracurriculars available are quite great, it is not a "daycare" and the rigors of education are very high.
"69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation.
> donations to get in" has not been a thing in recent history if ever
Did you miss the Varsity Blues scandal? Official donations are uncommon and more reserved for the Ultra High Net worth, but they are a thing, Jared Kushner was the literal poster-child for it.
The most prevalent and whitewashed pay to play path is getting your child do an expensive specialty sport (Lacrosse, Fencing, Crew, Equestrian) & hiring college advisors & SAT prep.
1. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/it-costs-75925-to-go-to-yale....
This is still very different than the image painted by your GP, at least in my mind.
"A finishing school is a school for young women that focuses on teaching social graces and upper-class cultural rites as a preparation for entry into society" [1]
"a philosophy of education that empowers individuals with broad knowledge and transferable skills, and a stronger sense of values, ethics, and civic engagement ... characterised by challenging encounters with important issues, and more a way of studying than a specific course or field of study" [2]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finishing_school [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education
Not quite what I'm getting at. My point is more that the value proposition of the undergraduate programs of Ivy Leagues is partly the elite social circle you buy into.
Secondly, some of these ideas of "fixing" Ivy League admissions would just send those circles elsewhere, because rich families send their kids to schools with the children of other rich families.
This tight coupling of social and economic class is the real issue and radically changing a few schools' admission policies isn't going to dismantle that.
Being trained for an elite social circle is the entire value proposition of a finishing school, not sure where you see a disagreement.
> Secondly, some of these ideas of "fixing" Ivy League admissions would just send those circles elsewhere, because rich families send their kids to schools with the children of other rich families.
These days it's less about meeting your spouse and more a gateway to future income and prestige opportunities; IB, MGMT Consulting, Big Tech or to Law School (Politics). Those tracks and opportunities will still be there and be attractive if more poor people were admitted.
Unless there are specific reforms to talk about it's hard to argue further. However, clearly the "Ivy League Cartel" is colluding to limit enrollment of poorer people.
Gaining access to elite social circles is not the same thing as being trained for those circles. There are plenty of institutions that enable elite networking that have nothing to do with finishing school, so it's a false equivalence.
Sure but this is pedantic and both are aspects of a finishing school or elite university...
Edit: more importantly though, your last paragraph is spot on. The rich (or simply upper middle class) paying for an exclusive better education, retaking expensive exams, and "fancy extracurriculars" during the K12 period is not a fair way to structure a society.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_briber...
I don't find the existence of students from middle class or lower backgrounds to be contrary to any of my premises. My point is more around the network effects. The children of the elite do attend these schools. The children of the elite are by definition already elite. Exposure to these social circles, even through something like the alumni network is a massive value proposition and massively increases ones chances of becoming an elite. If the children of the elite were to go elsewhere, the social network and value goes along with them.
This is not to say Ivy Leagues don't have other merits as undergraduate institutions, such as great staff and academics.
> The higher steps of the economic ladder are overrepresented simply because having money implies better K12 education in the US, which makes it easier to get into these schools.
It's not just K12 education, it's extracurriculars, it's SAT prep, it's high schools paying recruiters to visit campus, etc. It's a virtuous cycle. But again there are also network effects to consider. Rich and powerful families want to send their children schools with children from their socioeconomic class, so they cluster.
> And while the extracurriculars available are quite great, it is not a "daycare" and the rigors of education are very high.
My point on undergrad being akin to "daycare" is not unique to Ivy Leagues. In my experience in the US, there is a certain type of student that doesn't work a job, lives in a supervised environment (dorm), doesn't pay their own bills, doesn't cook for themselves, studies occasionally and who's main focus is fraternizing with their peers. This lifestyle is what I am comparing to daycare, and I don't believe this is uncommon esp. in places that cater to those of higher socioeconomic class.
I guess you are more likely to see such applicants in sociology, WGS, VES and other concentrations stereotypically seen as easy. I doubt people who get a ride based on their athletic achievements in spite of their low GPA flock to CS and physics.