We've transitioned from "A women's place is in the home (barefoot, pregnant, and cooking a delicious meal for her husband)" to "A woman's place is whatever she wants, and men are the reason for everything that's wrong with the world today". Whether it's world war or a bad relationship or choosing the right car.
It's not a binary decision, people. We don't need to decide which gender/sex is "better" or "more right".
In all seriousness, if we are to succeed as a society, then ignorantly maintaining what are mostly over generalizations and stereotypes related to gender is a failing proposition. And that involves anything that existed pre-the-whole-world-is-now-connected.
That means
> It's not a binary decision, people. We don't need to decide which gender/sex is "better" or "more right".
But, for most of our parents it was binary and decision was obvious.
People fantasize about going back to that. Even the young kids, Gen Z, which is most concerning. Something alarming is that this comes from a feeling of helplessness. That and similar feelings explains the increase in massacres, hatred, and even why terrorists traditionally came from countries in turmoil. The kids need to be feeling hopeful not helpless.
Violence has been falling substantially in the US:
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/20/facts-about...
The group has no room for anything really but for the extreme emotional reactions of in-group/out-group psychology and you see this playing out in our society because of social media.
There is literally no room for nuanced discourse between individuals with the way our social media platforms are structured. Individuals will not drive engagement the way groups do.
― Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
“Hey, society and the media and politicians, institutions have all decided your nature is a problem and that you are assumed guilty, to be viewed with suspicion at all times. Oh and for some reason, you should still want to support this structure with your hard work and taxes, and shut up and never mention it.”
Honestly - I don’t know why I would tell him he should accept this society, why he shouldn’t move to another country and why he should stick around. It isn’t showing any signs of changing.
It sickens me, I don’t believe in my own country anymore.
Whoever you are and whatever you do, there's always going to be some group that doesn't like you or "your kind". Running away doesn't teach your kids how to face this; it just changes where they'll face it.
Scott Alexander as a nice rationaliization of this dynamic
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweap...
So the average man certainly had more of an advantage. But there are lots of other factors of course, then and now. Class, race, disability status…
I often wish the public face of feminism was more intersectional. Unfortunately we get undifferentiated pop/choice feminism instead. I’m as tired of it as the next person, considering it usually ignores trans issues (beyond maybe some lip service) all together.
Also I feel like this entire thread seems to ignore the economic component of this discussion. Women are stagnant too. Our system is crumbling, and young people without access to generational wealth are suffering, there is no good path into the middle class anymore, so why bother at all? That is the main takeaway.
Absolutely. Through all the stats and pronouncements that make it seem as if women are all powerful and are gaining economic and moral power, it's true only on the scale that is dwarfed by the patriarchal capitalism that is taking everything. For all of us who work hard and take home so little compared to those who hoard so much, we take the bait that the conflict is between us and ourselves, not us and them. Orwell write SO well about this in Animal Farm.
Punishing the most vulnerable individuals of a group because of the collective sins of that group, we may as well feed males lead until they're out of the game, it's only really one step further than subjecting them to systemic discrimination. JUSTICE!
In commercial and entertainment media, it’s the woman in the kitchen, buying the groceries, raising the children, and holding down a 80 hour week job at her law firm. The man is playing ball in the yard, or is doing business in a suit. He definitely expects dinner to be on the table when he gets home from his 1950’s day job.
Then there’s other people. Women get asked “when are you having a baby” and “why is your husband so thin don’t you feed him”, and men get “so what do you do?”.
Women are now in the position where they are expected to do all of the things a woman would traditionally do, and hold down a career. The expectation of men has barely shifted - I know precious few guys who do all the cooking and cleaning and child rearing.
The message is that to be a man is to be lesser, or irrelevant, or harmful to society. That there's something shameful about being a man.
"There's nothing wrong with taking men down a peg or two; after all, they rule pretty much everything". Yeah, now what about the overwhelmingly vast percentage of men who will never have a management position or hold office? Whose life is just mediocre? Is it also okay to tell him he's toxic trash?
And sure, the proper response is "don't listen to the garbage". Doesn't mean it's okay to spew garbage.
As for entertainment media, it's a shit-show on both sides -- women and men are both horribly stereotyped.
This whole comment was BS, but I’ll focus on one example. This is the exact opposite of the truth, “toxic masculinity” is a common phrase because “toxic” is an adjective that is seen as *adding significant information to the description which is not already present in ‘masculinity’”.
If masculinity were viewed as inherently toxic, “toxic masculinity” wouldn’t be a needed phrase.
No, its not, and if you think the things it targets “all the thing that make men men”, you have a very sick idea of what being a man is.
> If it was really a technical term to describe the bad components of masculinity, then there would be an equivalent in terms of femininity, since there are aspects of femininity that can be construed as toxic.
The equivalent is, as one might expect, “toxic femininity”. While it gets less attention, the attention it does get is from the exact same people who care the mosf about toxic masculinity.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-sexuality-and-ro...
"Please don't fulminate."
"When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. 'That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3' can be shortened to '1 + 1 is 2, not 3."
"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."
It's fair I guess so I apologize for what I represent to all these people who had oppressed ancestors, but I'm not sure they're actually resolving much of what people who looked like me did to them: poverty, lack of empowerement, inability to operate in a modern world etc, they can spend their time making me acknowledge my associated responsibility but I wish they'd just let me help instead :D
I remember telling a "philipino" (culturally/parents born there) born in the country that I was an immigrant here, he could not even compute it. He felt HE was, while obviously he was born here and a full right citizen, while my associated identity made him believe I was a sort of powerful lord instead of the scraping by immigrant I am, who has mostly the right to shut up and be useful... in HIS country. It's just weird.
What do you mean? Of course those are optional. If you don't want a career, you're not going to have one. If you don't want to get married and support a family, then you don't have to.
I mean, "saddle up to a breadwinner" is an extremely demeaning thing to say about a whole class of people. The reality is that men dominate all desirable, successful professions, so the probability of a man "saddling up" to a woman that makes significantly more than him is very small.
There isn't much to me that is worth doing that wouldn't produce some kind of income.
Still so much I want to do yet, I don't have time for retirement.
I'm at a loss for how people can get bored and I don't even game or watch much in the way of movies or television. I think for some people they get attuned to work so much that they don't remember what life is like without it.
I have. And have had no problems filling it with the above activities. My folks are retired and don't seem to be having much trouble finding creative projects and enjoyable things to do, like hiking and discovering new things.
Honestly I thought my dad would be a prime candidate for the type who gets so used to chasing the rabbit that they have no idea what to do once they retire. I'm glad to see that isn't the case.
I think about stuff like this too, but then I remember how my existing hobbies are already funded by my job.
And while it might be nice for the men who dominate all desirable, successful professions, does this help the median man? They're all individuals, after all.
> And while it might be nice for the men who dominate all desirable, successful professions, does this help the median man? They're all individuals, after all.
No, it doesn't. The fact that Jeff Bezos is a man or a woman does not affect my life at all. But, as a man, I have an easier time networking and working with other men in my field.
Pretending that this is a trope is harmful to discussion. Women can easily make it to 30yo without ever personally having to deal with solving any problems they have if they are pretty.
This does not however mean women don't have legit problems. However the gap of assistance options men have vs women is incredibly vast.
What gap of assistance options are you talking about? What class of women are benefiting from this? Seriously, a lot of women on Bourbon Street would like to know.
This is not true for women under 30yo. Men overwhelming rate women as attractive for the under 30yo demographic. Upwards of 80% of women are "attractive" to men. Look up the okcupid studies or others if you are really curious.
> During the first quarter of 2021, 41 women will lead Fortune 500 companies. That’s just 8.2 percent, but an improvement from the 33 companies in 2019 and 24 in 2018. Going back 20 years, there were just two companies on the list that were run by women, according to Fortune.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/record-number...
There's more women doctors, but that percentage hovers around 35%, which is about the same as the number of women in leadership positions in U.S. federal and state government.
Although that won't necessarily translate to a majority of practitioners because women are much more likely to suspend or leave a career for family.
There's a similar, albeit trailing, trend for business school. https://www.mba.com/information-and-news/research-and-data/w...
That'd be funny in 2000 years to see the woke crowd fight for men's equal right to be trophy husband and yoga teachers too.
You are both out of reality.
If you are going to let yourself be hammed in by such a traditionalist view of family and your inability (or maybe: lack of initiative) to get a footing in life, sounds like your setting yourself up as a victim.
I live and work across Europe, and I have never encountered men or women being held back like that. Couples I know stick together because they want to, not because of economic reasons or outdated economic views on family. Hell I've been holding down the fort while my wife was working. And vice versa. I mean, its 2021, our parents were hippies! My dad was out of work for half of his life but my mom not a single day.
My real world seems utterly unrelated to what these men seem to think. Perhaps they just need to get out there a bit more?
We have never had symmetry as humans in this area. Low status males don't get to fuck as much. That has always been the case for all human history. This is nothing new.
And she's paid more than me, and has a PhD. She still consider me a breadwinner who must win and herself a disempowered victim who need support :D
Only half? My exp is more like 80% shack up with a breadwinner. Even with half of women that means max 25% of men get this option.
I don't think most would say men have it equally available but I'd certainly say it's more available than it was in the past just like women having jobs that can allow them to be the primary breadwinner are much more prevalent in 2021 than it was in 1981.
I do know some male stay at home dads but not as many.
I mean if you go outside Western bubbles e.g. all of Asia Latam etc. 99% of women seek to marry a breadwinner over having their own career, closer to how it was 50 years ago here in the US, a dynamic that's hard to miss.
The 50% I mentioned is from a competitive ivy league school where you get a major career leg up. If 50% of female friends who went to an ivy have tapped out from career making, yes, it's easy to imagine how it's still the widespread norm even in US
This view isn't even mainstream yet. We are already seeing lots of parents worrying much more about their son than their daughters. It will likely take another 10 years until everything is seriously fucked up before it hit mainstream media and widespread concern, another 10 years for some ( or not ) discussions, then another 10 years before something is done. Basically a whole generation of Male.
And I will probably get downvoted for mentioning it, but I do think Jordan Peterson has a point about young male lacking motivation in modern Society.
I'd be weirdly worried about a boy feeling like crap without a big career or needing our help. I know a daughter would be much less humiliated at the prospect.
If an equality program is so successful that it creates an equality imbalance in the other direction what do we do?
We could cancel the programs and call it's goal completed, but this seems wrong.
We could create new programs that target raising admissions of men, but that also seems wrong, at least in the current climate.
Maybe it's just the case that men don't prefer college as much or perhaps it's too expensive when you can't get scholarships because your not the right identity.
[1] https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/prediction-no-graduation-spea...
Equality of outcome is not possible or even desirable. That is the problem. The more people try to force some completely unnatural result, the more terrible things they'll have to do (e.g., discrimination on the basis of body attributes, as if there is some good way to do it) and the worse things will get.
I know that whenever I've seen women only projects I did feel a sting in my heart, because what if I wanted to participate?
The only way to be able to participate would be to abandon manhood and transition into womanhood...
Where as there are no 'men-only' projects and things. Not that there should be. We all should have the freedom to whatever we desire (as long as it's not hurting others of course).
Having doors closed to me just because of the factors over which I have no control is very painful and maybe I've been exposed to that more due to having stunted growth and being born with cleft lip. Luckily I can speak without any troubles which is quite uncommon. But because my mustache does grow around where the stitching is, it's still somewhat noticeable and due to the nose also being affected I've also received my share of beating and being called a goblin in schools.
I've been without a goal for most of my life, and have thus tried to take my life multiple times, but after reading about finance I've decided to work and invest as much as I can, so that I can reach a point where I can live from the passive income so that I'll finally have peace (and in a way be able to reduce my interactions with the society to the bare minimum).
((Please don't tell me that my goal isn't achievable because I already get enough of that from my father and pretty much anyone I talk to about finances, and it's really disheartening...))
Interestingly enough, elder people were always the most kind to me, maybe because they judge less by the looks or because many mistook me for a woman. (Or maybe they just don't see as well and thought that I was a kid)
I say this because you said that being without a life goal was so difficult that you attempted to take your own life. Just setting an (often achievable) financial goal is kicking that can down the road. It's something I fear for myself quite a bit, so I've been picking up lots of hobbies to plant the seeds for when I have an abundance of free time. For me, this is a combination of travel, camping, guitar, surfing, reading (hopefully one day writing), and most recently geocaching. Each hobby has its own set of goals that I hope can occupy me indefinitely.
1. What would be the ratio of male vs. female degrees if everyone had the access to higher education? Maybe by their own volition men would choose to get a higher education less often than woman? The writer seems to think 50/50 is "fair" but I don't think he would agree that equality of outcome is a metric we should strive for.
2. How much of the shift in the ratio has been due to Woman's Centers? There are a huge number of relevant societal/economic/logistical factors that have changed in the last 40 years that would have an impact on woman having the means/desire/permission to attend college.
3. How many woman are there that previously did not go to college (for the reasons above) that are now making that choice? Could these woman's centers still be relevant for assisting woman in "making up for lost time"?
I don't claim to have the answers to these questions but I think anyone who isn't considering them is probably missing something from the larger picture - this is a complex issue after all.
It changes the narrative around financial aid when you view it as communities putting in the work to ease the burdens of folks who are like them. Maybe it says something about how difficult it is to "make it" for them that they're disproportionately more willing to donate back to their community.
Schools are not performing as well for men as they do for women.
I'm not just playing with words; it is really important to frame the share of responsibility correctly.
It is the school's job to educate the kid, not kid's job to compensate for the dysfunctions of an education system. I'll generalize because I don't have any detailed data; anyone from the front-line educator to the curriculum designer to the budget maker is potentially responsible for this failure. On this particular issue, they are the ones not doing well, not the kids.
It looks like schools are performing better for men than women.
Today there are more women graduating medical and law school than men. Given the trends the current imbalance (of sheer numbers) will be a thing of the past in a decade or two.
> It looks like schools are performing better for men than women.
Or school isn't the only factor? Schools could be failing boys, and society could be failing women in other ways.
Distortion 1) You can't take the outliers of a flatter distribution and generalize that to the entire population. You can't even compare the averages of two separate distributions without qualifiers.
It is true, most of the people who run governments are men. Most of the people who own companies are men. Most of the people who dominate C levels are men. Most highly paid professionals are mostly held by men. Most of the top outliers of capital ownership are men.
But it is also true most men don't run governments. Most men are not even remotely close to running companies. Most men are not C level execs. Most men don't have high paying jobs. Most men don't have any capital (if not negative).
Distortion 2) Even if it was true that it was exclusively powerful men's fault that boys are failing, it is completely irrelevant to bring it up when talking about men as victims, unless one would also suggest that boys somehow deserve to suffer educational disadvantages because of those men have a lot of capital, or there is some hidden variable that connects the two events.
Start with men suffering ~90% of workplace fatalities?
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf
Why is there no push for women to be equally represented in the jobs that SUCK? Where are the feminists advocating for 50% of coal miners and loggers to be female? Nowhere to be found....because they want to secure the benefits that accrue to a small fraction of men, produced by the whole civilization (C-level positions, etc.) without sharing the bone-crushing burdens endured by the larger swathe of the male population that actually enables it.
Well, given that we’re talking about labour…
And how many men die in childbirth? Men have a choice to take dangerous jobs. Women don’t have a choice to have medical complications during labour.
I'd say about 50% of the neonatal death rate.
:)
Seriously though, US has an unexpectedly high maternal death rate for a western country: https://www.statista.com/chart/23541/maternal-mortality-deve...
100% of the males who get naturally pregnant. Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. It's almost like there are biological differences between men and women, and that these organisms are largely optimized for distinct roles in the human system.
>>>Men have a choice to take dangerous jobs.
If men flat-out refused to do dangerous work....our entire industrialized economy would collapse, because at the end of the day all of it is built on top of natural resource extraction. Are you suggesting that all those men digging rare earth metals out of the ground should just #learntocode?
>>>Women don’t have a choice to have medical complications during labour.
But they DO have choice to not get pregnant at all, right? If men are accountable for their choice of profession and the inherent risks, are women not accountable for their reproductive choices and inherent risks? If reducing (obviously gender-skewed) labor complications is a valid societal concern, than shouldn't reducing (also gender-skewed) workplace fatalities also be a valid societal concern? I'm not really sure what you are arguing here with the pregnancy angle.
Almost, some trans men can get pregnant. But I am being pedantic.
Far better to send economic help to the poor, instead of by gender/race/religion etc.
> Do we ignore the fact that the top of our society is dominated by men and only focus on the men in the 40th to 60th percentile of income?
Like I said, we have to be careful not to treat them as joint issues. Unless proven otherwise, problems regarding a lack diversity of representation at executive classes is not related to economic problems of lower income percentiles, or educational prospects of young boys for that matter.
The other framing bias is to treat as if can only fix one problem and we can only focus on that. It is actually a blessing that these are disjoint issues and we can multitask as a society and make incremental progress.
> I just fail to see where men are getting a raw deal here.
I think again this is because of attaching too much valence to category "men". You sound like a compassionate person and I think you wouldn't disagree if we formulated the problem as "any individual who is suffering raw deals should be treated fairly", even if those individuals happened to be low-income men or undereducated boys. I think true justice can only happen if no one is left behind. And treating men as a monolithic category will have the consequence of leaving some behind that shouldn't have been.
> Schools are not performing as well for men as they do for women.
Maybe men are just not inherently less suited to academic success, which is being made more clear now that systematic discrimination in their favor isn’t preventing equal-terms comparisons with women in that domain.
Equality of opportunity doesn't mean equality of outcomes, after all.
Maybe. A strong essentialist proposition requires an equally strong evidence, though. Have you got any?
> systematic discrimination in their favor isn’t preventing equal-terms comparisons with women in that domain
What positive systemic discrimination do boys receive in education? Since we are not observing a sudden drop after K-12 but a longitudinal effect, please explain starting from K, if any.
Just look at the behaviors of people who are participating in society, why are they on average getting married less, later in life, having less kids, and buying homes later if ever, when these are all supposed to be important stepping stones of adulthood. The incentives that used to be there are harder to reach for people that actually have it together, and getting further out of reach for average people. When life sucks, might as well drop out.
I know women who have little choice but to say they have a boyfriend when they want to turn someone down at a bar, because saying ‘sorry no thanks’ gets them insulted, harassed, covered in beer or assaulted. Women that turn a guy down on a dating app will be called names and told they were actually unattractive the whole time.
Yes, women are not immune to being violent, petty, deceitful and cruel, but men are terrifying on an entirely different level. If you consider yourself a nice guy, you might be somewhat oblivious to how pervasive it is.
This line surprised me, because I find it _far_ easier to stumble over mysogyny, casual or not. In the latter case, comitted by some of the men discussed here.
Ultimately, I think a lot of this is, on both 'sides', is people mistaking their toxic little corner of the internet for the real world. It is important not to be dragged into their worldview, because it is utterly incorrect. (Men are not any less supported than women, also, men do not have anything coming. In fact, men are not a singular group! So stop identifying with 'men', where we imagine some lucky billionaire as exemplar of men.)
When I've spoken to people about this i get a "that's because they dont try as hard" (anecdote not data). Which has always struck me as odd. When women didn't do well it was because the institutions weren't designed to accommodate them or their educational needs.
I think for young people in school a solution could be some evaluation on how that student learns and put them into a class that caters to that style. One size fits all education doesn't work. It didn't work for young women in the past and it doesnt work young men today.
I've had numerous conversations about this with my son, starting when he told me he didn't want to grow up to be a "man". Because of what he had absorbed from culture/society.
Today, men are told that we are disposable; Neanderthals; a legacy of the last century and the cause of everything that's wrong in the country/world; that we're patriarchal oppressors; that we're unnecessary and obsolete. The word "masculine" is at best a negative connotation, and usually meant as an attack.
So, yeah, I have first-hand experience with this. On the flip side, from talking with a couple of my son's female friends, they feel the pressure of being told that they can do and be everything. All at the same time. That's not great either.
The best response is to disengage from media and just be yourself. Easier said than done sometimes, for sure, but that's the longterm win.
I think this is incomplete by itself. Taking a couple of points from the article:
- Women are less likely than men to live at home with their parents.
- The increase in men living at home with their parents is primarily driven by those without college degrees (15->25% among those without college degrees over the last 25 years, 10->13% among those with college degrees).
Per [0], in 2019, there was a 8 point gender gap among young adults (25-29) for college degrees (associate's and above).
[0] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/pdf/coe_caa.pdf
A guess at a fuller explanation might then be that wage growth for jobs that don't require a college degree haven't kept up with rent growth, and the gender gap here is driven by the gender gap in educational attainment.
One other thing that I observed:
If you look at the labor force participation graph in the article, it slowly trended downwards from the 60s, and then suddenly jumped down around 2008-2011, and since then stayed mostly flat until last year.
Meanwhile, the fraction of young men living at home rose steadily from the 60s until the mid-90s, dropped for a few years, and then resumed climbing after 2000 (with no such jumps around 2009 or 2020).
On one hand, we have these economic shocks (Great Recession, pandemic) that force a bunch of men out of the labor market, but at the same time, more men are living at home even as labor force participation remained largely constant throughout most of the 2010s. That reads to me like it refutes the article's central claim of correlation between these two variables.
But I also can't help but feel commenters are conflating 'attack on masculinity' !== 'attack on toxic masculinity.'
There is not some organized movement trying to make young boys 'less of a man.'
I'm guessing a very large % of HN is male so would be nice to amplify any female voices who want to chime in.
I think you're right that the real issues are economic. In fact I'd say that this is part of a larger, more general tendency to use cultural conflict to distract from class conflict.
For whatever reason, women will go into debt or be allowed to go into debt to get useless degrees and there is no countervailing force to say: “uh marine biology is cool but…$500,000?”
This has lead to a situation where women have gotten 13 million more colleges degrees than men over the last few decades.
Meanwhile I think a lot of men go: “eh; yeah no.”
In my eyes it is just that masculinity that often is the problem. The problem is not that kids live in an environment that doesn't like it if they e.g. resort to violent and/or foreceful behaviour to assure themselves of their masculinity — the problem is, that the kids think their worth as a human being depends on fulfilling these outdated male ideals. And who can blame them? It is all a matter of having the right role models in your life.
Having worked with teens from troubled social backgrounds I can assure you that the behaviour and expectations of the parents feed into this in a powerful (and often very destructive!) way.
Your task as a parent is to prepare your kids for the world they will live in. If the world changed and males are expected to be more empathetic, less aggressive, etc. then don't scold your boy for crying, playing with puppets or other things you perceive as "unmanly". Be critical about the way you as a parent deal with your own feelings of sadness, anger, etc in front of your kids.
I had the luck to have had a very caring father, and I never had the feeling that my masculinity was endangered. If anything I felt sorry for all the guys in my surrounding who tried so hard to hide their feelings that they started to forget they had any.
So in short: the problem with masculinity is that many boys learn from their surroundings that the self worth of a man is connected how masculine he acts and can be reduced if he acts feminine. This is utter bullshit. Your kid should be allwoed to explore their feelings without constant judgment about them.
I find the irony to all this is the sons are getting punished for the sins of the father. Every "equity" program I can name, every single one primarily punishes the young while leaving the old, who presumably would have been the ones who setup a rigged game, alone. People lose their chances to enter the labour market, they don't lose their existing jobs. I mostly see the innocent getting punished because they were born guilty.
Regarding school, men mature more slowly than women and do worse in certain intellectual enterprises like memory and seem to get a third of a grade point lower grades when their tests are scored unblinded. If you really wanted to make men and women score equally you could by blinding tests and tilting them more to skills men tend to do better on and not expecting equality between their age cohorts until they hit at least their late teens. There is simply no interest in doing such a thing and instead I hear outrage that men are the majority in any academic discipline even if on the aggregate they're behind.
Other than the current one, you mean?
What planet are you on? The whole social system is geared towards supporting men. 70% of the U.S. government is men. Most companies are owned by men. Most of the C-suite of most companies are men. Most engineers, doctors, lawyers, investors, and all other desirable, high-paying jobs are dominated by men. Just look around.
Everything you listed is correct, but I think both of your statements can be true. Men aren't in need of societal advantages, but they are in need of some societal support. And that doesn't have to compete with very real things women require either.