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Comment by JoeyBananas | Hacker News Reader

I completely reject everything that you are saying. A grown man (or woman) who is dependent on their parents at that level has very serious problems because they are the equivalents of obese domestic dogs in a world full of wolves. Left to their own devices, they would have nothing.

A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist. They take it for granted that others will support them even though they contribute nothing and they don't understand that there could be any reason to work hard other than their own immediate pleasure. Ironically, these people often complain that the reason for their situation is because others aren't doing enough to help them. In their minds, it's not really their fault that they are failures and they go to great lengths to convince other people of these lies.

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> A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist

Nah, lots of people just tend to follow the path of least resistance at the moment. They don't assume that others will support them forever, they just aren't thinking about it since it is bothersome. If they were forced to do other things then they will do other things, since the force changed what path has the least resistance.

I agree with you, it might not necessarily be narcissism that causes someone to always do the bare minimum in life. What it really comes down to is lack of discipline.

I've mostly done the bare minimum in life, at things that I didn't want to do. I agree I'm undisciplined. It took a long time to find my own path, and something to strive for.

I think your labels are part of the problem. They're not narcissists. They're people. And you look down on them just for being people.

If you want to help them, perhaps treat them as equals and listen to them rather than thinking of ways to change them.

I wish I knew their gamer tags so that I could play a few rounds of halo with them, or whatever they like to play. They seem chill.

I know a kid that is a bit at risk of this. The issue i see isn’t lack of discipline as much as it is lack of passion or motivation for anything. If you explore their desire for the future it is a complete blank. Nothing is interesting to them, the future just seems dark and grim, they are resolute about not having children and it feels like, to them, the world is committing slow-motion suicide and there’s no sense in getting emotionally invested in any particular outcome.

What it often (of course not always) comes down to is that they have experienced some trauma or unfairness that ruins their trust in the delayed reward systems that the survivor contingent happily takes advantage of. It's a much greater emotional load to maintain discipline when you experience setbacks that are out of your control, even partly. If 100 people break the law and 10 get the book thrown at them and 90 get away free, those 10 made a bad choice but they also were unlucky. The bad luck part will tend to weaken the cognitive biases that help people stay motivated, i.e. the just world fallacy, and move their locus of control outward. Risks become less appealing. Satiating immediate wants and needs over investing in long term ones may seem rational.

How do you address this issue? I think it's cheaper and better for everyone to address unfairness than to try to fix people after they come to feel abused by the world. It would also be better than the status quo of Social Darwinism with a sprinkle of charity and busted social programs.

Dear downvoter, I'd be interested in reading why I deserved it.

> How do you address this issue? I think it's cheaper and better for everyone to address unfairness than to try to fix people after they come to feel abused by the world.

Yes, but somehow forward thinking isn't a common phenomenon in our society.

> Dear downvoter, I'd be interested in reading why I deserved it.

Undoubtedly you didn't "deserve" it. The voting system is just a way for the prevailing cliques to signify who's present. This thread is ripe with the hateful and helpless young men referred to in the article, evident by many of the comments. The worse part is that growing trend in this direction on HN. I'd say HN is currently experiencing max Q and I'm not sure it will make it to the other side without succumbing to the pressure(ie decent people leaving the site for good).

The experience here is worse than before, but still better than elsewhere. I think that means HN is ripe for innovation!

What is "Q"? You seem to refer to a model that I haven't heard about and I'm curious about it. (And not sure how to Google this one).

I was wondering that too and think it is this aerospace term[0] as metaphor. Q can describe the sharpness/resonance of a signal filter, too, which was my first thought, but makes less sense, although they seem like related terms[1].

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Q

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_factor

Could also be depression and learned helplessness. Playing video games all day is just a coping mechanism or distraction from the first two problems.

>A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist.

I spent a mere year after college living with my parents, a very long and sad year, wondering if this was going to be the rest of my life. My next real job came somewhat out of sheer luck and I'm thankful for it because I could totally see myself having given up, still back there to this day, still having no idea how to take my first step in a direction that actually motivated me beyond the baseline survival mode of wage-slavery. Not for one second during that time did I want to live like that, but it could have very well been the case anyway. Narcissism is far from the truth

I am talking about people who are orders of magnitude less motivated than you and do nothing to improve their situation. These people probably never went to college or dropped out just to stay home and play video games. In your case, working a low paying job as a college graduate is actually highly virtuous. Some college grads would rather do nothing because they think they are hot shit.

>working a low paying job as a college graduate is actually highly virtuous.

I disagree. In principle I don't think anyone should work a low paying job, and I think opting out if you can afford it is the right thing to do.

Why should we have a race to the bottom on labor? I'd rather we have more blogs and interesting reading on the internet than cheap Starbucks thanks to full employment and high labor-force participation.

Work for the sake of being busy is silly, I believe industriousness like you profess is unsustainable for our planet, at least in our current social order.

I mean, how much of motivation comes from one's environment/upbringing... I have a strong sense that the vast majority of them thought they just didnt have opportunities to begin with, leading later to the deduction that "the game is rigged" and were destined to wage-slavery anyway. Thus no reason to motivate themselves to contribute

Made a throwaway for obvious reasons. I'm in the middle of that year right now. I was doing well - transferred from community college to a top university studying engineering. Perfect grades, several prestigious summer internships. Then I had a depressive episode. Grades went down the toilet, had to leave school. Spent a year getting my life back together, but the depression never really went away. I went back to school part time and was slowly finishing my degree, though never achieving at the same level as before. Things were kind of working. Then covid happened and the lockdown was basically a perfect storm that destroyed all of the fragile systems I had created to get by. Got kicked out of school this time. Now I'm in my late 20's, with no degree and no relevant job experience, sitting in my old bedroom and trying to figure out what the hell to do with my life. From where I am now it really does feel like this is going to be the rest of my life. I can't speak for anyone else, but playing video games or watching youtube all day is the absolute last thing I want, but it feels like just about the only thing I can do right now, and at least it's a distraction from all of the opportunities that are now out of reach.

The only advice I can provide: build things. It does not matter what: social, digital, or physical. Affect the world that surrounds you, don't be its effect. Good luck. You've got it in you. It's hard, but you'll pull though.

From what little I know about you, it sounds like you are someone who just. keeps. trying. That can take you far.

For what it's worth, I know several (good) engineers who became engineers much later than their late 20's.

I don't know you at all so I don't know how much this can mean, but I just want to say that your situation sounds extremely tragic to me and I feel for you, and your repeated attempts to better yourself and your situation give me hope that you can pull yourself out of this

You're speaking in past tense about baggage you carry. No one is keeping score but yourself. The only way your life will improve is tackling your issues instead of making excuses for them. I say this with kindness, you need to get over it. If playing video games or watching YouTube all day is really the "absolute last thing" you want then act like it. You make your own opportunities, outside of that it's simply luck.

I say this with kindness

It didn't sound very kind or even understanding.

Consider enlisting in the Air Force: lots of opportunities for interesting technical education, well-paid global travel, far less physical risk than the other military branches, just enough discipline and structure to give you some direction.

Check yourself medically; you might have hEDS, or some other hormonal problem. It’s much more prevalent than people think. Check T3 thyroid for sub clinical, check your Testosterone (female and males). Check for post exertion fatigue by exercising to exhaustion and trying to repeat in a few days. You could do a FMa test. The official diagnosis for hEDS is crap, so go through the comobidities and see if there are other weird things about yourself that it could explain. I spent years thinking I was lazy before finally figuring it out.

"they don't understand that there could be any reason to work hard"

The cultural pedestal of "working hard" is tragically misplaced. Market promotes those that work smart or gable at the right opportunity, corporate politics promotes the well connected, people that support their family or community the most deserve respect, but the poor folks stocking amazon warehouses 12 hours a day get screwed.

"In their minds, it's not really their fault that they are failures and they go to great lengths to convince other people of these lies."

sometimes it is really not their fault, but one day their parents will not be able to provide for them, and that's when the real tragedy will begin.

Leaving home at 18 is really mostly an american thing.

Go to a place like Italy or India or Pakistan and you'll find 30+ year olds living with their parents and it's no big deal at all.

At least in South Asia they are also at that point working and in many cases supporting their parents.

30+ year olds are working. In rural areas working in farms with their parents. In urban areas employed in some other job.

It's true that we are supported until we finish education, however. Which I think is a good thing.

Not everyone can do "something." A lot of jobs aren't meaningful or even necessary, and given the increased tendency to require 4 year degrees on top of internships, connections, and more for many jobs makes it harder to obtain them.

Also, a lot of jobs that would employee these men are disappearing. Retail in particular is the employer of last resort, but physical shops are slowly dwindling in numbers. People are a lot more aware of how bad the military is to be in, too; there is much less glamour around it culturally.

> A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist.

This is not narcissism. This is sloth.

Narcissim is a active behavior/disorder that seeks out positive and negative attention through manipulation.

Agree, especially those who were lucky enough to be born in first world countries

I am taking more of a positive approach and describing why this is happening the rationale/motivation, not necessarily endorsing it.

How do you know they are failures, if they are happy with their situation.

Not leading a meaningful life inevitably leads to depression.

That's not to say that a very small few people may somehow find meaning exclusively playing video games. However most people will eventually suffer from lack of self-esteam, low status and shame.

Exactly what is a meaningful life anymore, especially in America?

If you are looking for self-esteem through your job--for most of us those days are gone.

(I know way to many former Programers who aged out of the industry way to early, and gave up. Way to many are homeless. My point is don't expect too much psychological satisfaction from a job that barely covers the rent, has no real pension, and lousy medical. My father lived for work. He loved being an electrician. He didn't develop friendships, or hobbies. He died of liver cancer a few months into retirement. One of our last conversations was when he was dying. He got a letter from the union stating they will now cover his medical expenses 100%.)

> Exactly what is a meaningful life anymore, especially in America?

That's a personal and existental question. What are your principles? What would you like people to say about you at your funeral?

These are my principles. I want to be honest and fair to others. I don't care what people say about me at my funeral. Perfectly ok with an anonymous death.

This gives rise to 2 questions

1. Do you mean a meaningful life from the gamers perspective or from the perspective of outsiders?

2. If the issue is lack of self-esteem etc. Wouldn't it be better to focus on mental health instead of employment? Once again, I was interested in talking about gamers who are happy with their situation.

Meaningful to one's self and principles. In the sense that Viktor Frankl wrote about in "Man's Search for Meaning." Wherein he describes the survivors of the nazi concentration camps were the prisoners who had something personally meaningful to live for. People thrive if they have meaning in their lives.

If you can derive meaning from your career, that's great. Otherwise, family or contributing to society or whatever you think makes a difference in the world and is worth working toward.

Like everything, gaming is great in moderation, but the gamer who does nothing with their life but game is probably going to have some regrets on their deathbed.

If the gamer is happy spending his time with his parents and games, it might well be that his principles are aligned around this social connection and activity. It is difficult for me to judge from a distance. Moreover, he might not have any particular principle for his life. I know plenty of folks like that.

You have also used another word - meaning. Is that a synonym for principle?

I am sure the gamer interacts with his parents. I couldn't find anything in the medical literature about excessive gaming either. It is quite possible that he may have regrets on his deathbed like most people. However optimizing your life for the thoughts you will have in your deathbed might not be a great tradeoff if it means doing work that makes you miserable for most of your life.

Hello Dad!

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