The U.S. Military Emits More CO2 Than Many Industrialized Nations (2019)
forbes.com
forbes.com
When a contractor is designing a new weapons platform, they focus exclusively on other factors of design, energy efficiency essentially isn't even a consideration as long as it can be refueled mid-mission.
But really, if we want to discuss the US military and the environment, their carbon footprint is the least of my concerns. A bigger concern for me is how they've improperly handled and disposed of MASSIVE quantities of toxic waste over the years and continue to do so. One report I read concluded that nearly half of all PFOAs and PFOSs in the water systems in the continental US originated from military base runoff from them simply dumping expired/excess firefighting chemicals on the ground into open trenches.
Basically every US military base inside the US is a superfund site the moment it is fully decommissioned and turned over to non-DoD control. That should tell you something. Carbon footprints aren't meaningless, but they're nearly so, compared to the far worse forms of pollution the US military does routinely that directly impacts everyone that lives nearby (I live in "Military City, USA", ask me about water quality here...).
Ho-ly shit. I mean I know blatant corruption is basically under ever political rock ever everywhere, but that is... wow.
The question is whether or not we should hinder our ability to protect ourselves from external (and internal at this point) enemies in order to (possibly) protect the environment. Congress has decided that we shouldn't. You can, of course, come to a different conclusion, but I doubt Congress ever will.
On thr other hand, I am amused some people seem to think armored tanks should be getting 35mpg...
Distance, a need for speed, and difficulty of logistical support for mid-air refueling has resulted in massive advancement in airframe design and energy efficiency in the military compared to earlier designs. Had the energy efficiency requirements been mandated it would simply have acted as a forcing function.
The same is true for armored vehicles. Yes, carrying around a lot of dense steel plating is a problem, but we don't really do that as much anymore because we've found better ways to armor vehicles as steel plating has been defeated by ultra-dense metallic penetrators (DU/TC) and complex projectiles like HEIAP rounds. Ablative armoring combined with ceramic plating (which achieves better results than hardened steel at lower weights) HAS actually created an environment where fuel efficiency for vehicles like tanks has increased (or more accurately in most cases, their top speed has increased given a set engine performance when not gearing limited).
Do I think that Congress was wrong to carve out this exemption? Maybe, maybe not.
The one thing I think they definitely should NOT have been exempted from is the safe handling and disposal requirements for toxic waste. Personally, I'm not super concerned if a fighter jet or tank is fuel efficient, I am concerned about us utterly decimating the ground water and ecology of our own country by haphazardly dumping toxic substances.
... As a country, at this time, there is no excuse for this exemption remaining on the books, none, none at all.
One specific example that's local and relevant to me was the shut down of Kelly Air Force Base as part of BRAC, and the dumping of firefighting chemicals for aviation fires that contained PFOAs and PFOSs that contaminated local groundwater: https://www.sacurrent.com/the-daily/archives/2019/09/26/last...
Kelly was closed under BRAC in 1995, and then partially re-opened in 2001 through BRAC as a re-alignment to become Kelly Field, part of JBSA Lackland (previously Lackland AFB). During the closure in 1995, firefighting chemicals which contain toxic PCBs, including PFOA and PFOS, were dumped directly onto the ground where they ran off into the Leon Creek watershed, and still cause the waters to be toxic for swimming, fishing, or drinking today... that watershed feeds drinking water supplies for a significant portion of the city, a portion that happens to be one of the poorest areas of the city. Most of the firefighting chemicals dumped were from the 1970s but were still stored "just in case" until the base got BRACed and then they dumped them... in the 90s, well after PFOA and PFOS were established to be toxic (although the case against Dupont surrounding them was still ongoing and undecided until 2005).
So yeah, the Air Force and EPA have committed to a clean-up. Fantastic. No ETA, and the reality is that it's /extremely/ difficult to filter PFOA and PFOS out of water, even reverse osmosis isn't 100% effective. Meanwhile there are hundreds of thousands of people who are drinking contaminated water, swimming in contaminated streams, ponds, and lakes, and being exposed to contaminated fish.
Being obligated to do a clean-up "eventually" is not the same thing as being regulated from doing the dumping of toxic waste in the first place. That's my point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_usage_of_the_United_Sta...
So no, I will go ahead and boldly and proudly say it’s the free world. Don’t make the perfect the enemy of the good.
This is FUD and strawman. US military could probably be decreased by >50% without any negative consequences.
Another analogous situation is infosec. I used to work in that space, and a big problem companies have is trying to figure out how much money to sink into their infosec teams. Good orgs invest in infosec, but they also don't just give all their profits to those teams. The value proposition of security in general is just hard to measure; that said organizations have a tendency to either massively overinvest (because fear, and it's hard to measure) or underinvest (because you don't need it until something goes wrong). A lot of times they start out underinvested, something bad happens, and then suddenly they're overinvested because they are afraid of bad thing happening again. I think this last description is very apt for the US.
Military leaders, as the consumers of resources allocated to the military, are in a strong position to understand what resource allocation is necessary for a set of goals...
... however...
Military leaders, being inherently and existentially dependent on resources allocated to the military, are fundamentally incentivized to advocate for increased resource allocation to the military, independently of whether those resources are more necessary for the goals of the military than for other public goods.
And if they say they need more funding, I’ll believe them. Doesn’t take an Einstein to see the news abroad.
Similarly doesn't take an Einstein to look at US Military budget and compare it to the opportunity costs: with just proportionally small portions of the military budget, we could change education and healthcare dramatically. A healthy well educated populace is actually really important for global competitiveness.
If you've ever worked in a large organization, you know that there's a difference between underfunding an effort and pushing back to force them to prioritize better and become more efficient with resources.
Also, normally in well functioning organizations, there are metrics to measure how efficiently resources are being utilized. The US Military lacks oversight in this dimension.
"not very efficient"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
"Source: brother"
This is not a source.
"look at US military budget and compare it to the opportunity costs"
The opportunity costs of China or Russia telling everyone what to do? Have you not looked at any news recently?
If you've ever worked in a large organization, you know that there's a difference between underfunding an effort and pushing back to force them to prioritize better and become more efficient with resources.
Also, normally in well functioning organizations, there are metrics to measure how efficiently resources are being utilized. The US Military lacks oversight in this dimension.
We have military dominance by far across the entire planet. That sure seems like a great metric to me. And we'll maintain it and use the money better with time, and raise more if we need it.
For someone who wants to think their arguments are principled and others' aren't, this is really hilarious. What you stated isn't a metric.
> And we'll maintain it and use the money better with time, and raise more if we need it.
You make what you measure. How do you know we're using money better over time, and what historical barometers are you using for such an assertion? It's just not possible to build precise metrics around this. So it's important to be clear what proxy metrics you're using and to state the caveats of these very clearly.
If anything I think there's strong evidence that we're using money worse as time goes on. For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor the raptor cost $350M per aircraft, is no longer produced, and didn't even provide us superiority over its foreign competitors due to lack of flight range. Is that what you'd call efficient spend?
Do you really not see any problems with your advocacy for unlimited one-sided investment? You do realize it's possible to be simultaneously {pro-freedom and pro-american military supremacy} and {against unfettered military spending}?
>> "Source: brother"
> This is not a source.
I wasn't saying it's a research source, I'm saying it's one of _my_ sources for what I'm stating. I'm stating my opinions and where I'm coming from, in order to minimally convince a random reader that I'm not just pulling stuff out of my ass. I'm not writing a research paper. I don't even state any specifics of what I've learned from said relation. In normal conversation it's perfectly fine to say stuff like "oh yeah Yelp is a bureaucratic company, I know because I have N friends who work there." It's not rigorous, it's not something you'd write in a research paper, but it offers value to a normal-ass conversation, which is what's supposed to be happening here. In this case, since my brother is a SEAL I've probably heard some stories about how the Navy spends money. If you don't have similar context, you might be like "oh that's interesting to me." You also can ignore it.> The opportunity costs of China or Russia telling everyone what to do? Have you not looked at any news recently?
Do you even understand what opportunity cost is? This is intellectually dishonest of you -- unlimited military spending is not necessarily needed to prevent China and Russia from telling us what to do. And you can also see, from the very news you say I haven't looked at, that unlimited military spending doesn't even prevent them from telling a lot of people (or "everyone" in your parlance) what to do.
Opportunity cost is: if I spend $1 on bullets, I can't spend that $1 on {healthcare, education, economic growth}. Consider the opportunity cost of even a single $350M F-22.
What in particular about the news abroad tells you the US military is underfunded?
50% is perhaps too high, at least to start, but I think everyone can agree that the budget should be getting smaller rather than bigger as we continue to live in peace time. I personally believe we could cut 25% of the budget with no real hit to our readiness (consider 1/7th of the budget goes to R&D[1], which while obviously important, would not stop us from being effective at peacekeeping tomorrow). I think if it came down to it, bean counters would magically find areas of waste to expel in order to preserve their expected budgets.
[1] https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Releases/Release/Article/20...
You don't solve inefficiency problems by gutting the budget. I also don't care what you personally believe about "cut 25% of the budget with no real hit to our readiness." Who are you that I or anyone here should care what you personally believe about cutting 25%? lol. Looking at your site in your profile, you're hardly even old enough to drink. You're just a kid and you're talking about stuff you don't understand.
Go read the news about Hong Kong, Taiwan, the Koreas, Ukraine, and the general ethos driving China's debt-driven expansion and get back to me.
You don't solve them by throwing more money at the fire either. The budget has consistently risen YoY pretty much as long as I've been alive.
> money is being spent to its maximal potential
Historically countries that prioritize military (ex. North Korea) over education and other domestic programs do not succeed against countries with more balanced budgets. We will have to compete with brain drain if academics and entrepreneurs realize they can live better lives elsewhere. We have to be able to offer a country worth defending in order to convince people with good ideas that they should be defending us.
> then there's more capital that can be raised.
By raising taxes? Who would willingly want to pay more taxes to a government that isn't competent enough to safely defend its own land with the largest military in known history?
> Who are you that I or anyone here should care what you personally believe
An American citizen who can vote which qualifies me just as much as the next guy.
> hardly even old enough to drink.
Old enough to serve, old enough to pay taxes, and old enough to be drafted, which qualifies me to have a say even more. Unless you want to argue that I should be able to choose whether my tax money goes to inefficient institutions, in which case I would certainly agree in having that choice.
But I think you would agree that everyone should get a say in where their money is spent.
> general ethos driving China's debt-driven expansion
If China was serious about challenging the US any time soon it would be making serious strides to decouple its economy from the Western world, which so far has not happened and doesn't appear to be on the horizon. In fact I would argue the US's trade war is the closest we've come to forcing a division, but it appears that things are just going to go back to normal now, and China is willing to continue having the US as its largest customer.
China is obviously undergoing large scale economic growth and citizens everywhere are climbing up the poverty ladder, but that's not a sign of war nor should it be a pretense for one. Get back to me when Chinese aircraft carriers (when they build more, anyways) are sitting off the coast of NYC. Until then, this is just strongman bluffing. Every country in that region has a history of human rights abuses. Why is China the only one that we think will force us to conform to their ideals?
If the US military vanished today, Russia or China would be the world police.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_militar...
The raw reported spending numbers are a bit misleading because the Russian state is somewhat opaque and you need to adjust for purchasing power.
https://www.csis.org/analysis/understanding-chinas-2021-defe...
The US regularly flexes it’s might over friend and neutral country alike in order to protect its perceived economic interests. This means that you’re only free in so much as you’re already aligned with what the US wants.
Better than China, sure. But not great.
My point is more a response to the world being free because of America. America acts like an imperial power over the rest of the world. It strong arms allies into complying with its economic wishes, and it regularly overthrows weaker neutral governments for similar reasons.
Someone in South America would openly laugh at the idea that they’re free because of America, given how many democratically elected governments we’ve overthrown down there.
> regularly overthrows weaker neutral governments for similar reasons.
Name one neutral democratically elected government deposed by America since the conclusion of the cold war.
> Someone in South America would openly laugh at the idea that they’re free because of America, given how many democratically elected governments we’ve overthrown down there.
South America has had many leftist governments with a hostile foreign policy towards America over the past several decades. They generally seem to be getting on okay.
Edit: down vote if you must, but counter arguments would be welcome!
Relevant study:
https://kops.uni-konstanz.de/handle/123456789/52153
We contribute to the extensive literature on international influences on democratization and democratic breakdowns by conceptualizing hegemonic mechanisms of regime change and assessing them empirically. Our findings are based on a multi-methods approach and highlight the varying importance of hegemonic influences in post-1945 Latin America. We argue that US support for democratization was consistent in the wave of transitions to democracy that began in Latin America in 1978 and that it was decisive in many of these transitions. While past work has attributed responsibility to the US for the waves of democratic breakdowns from 1948 to 1956 and 1964 to 1976, an examination of the 27 breakdowns from 1945 to 2010 gives reason to doubt this interpretation. Future research could use these conceptual and methodological tools to explore the role of other powers in waves of democracy and authoritarianism.
This article does not refute that the US supported multiple coups in the US. The claim is simply that, since the US supposedly also aided a similar number of democracies to the number of authoritarian regimes it backed, it is therefore unjustified to say "US only supports authoritarians". This is not nearly as strong of a claim as what you seem to be suggesting.
Also, citing one single article on a complex matter such as this really doesn't prove anything. Anyone could cite plenty more articles with alternative takes.
"Someone in South America would openly laugh at the idea that they're free because of America"
Uh yeah there are plenty who do.
https://kops.uni-konstanz.de/handle/123456789/52153
And I quote:
We contribute to the extensive literature on international influences on democratization and democratic breakdowns by conceptualizing hegemonic mechanisms of regime change and assessing them empirically. Our findings are based on a multi-methods approach and highlight the varying importance of hegemonic influences in post-1945 Latin America. We argue that US support for democratization was consistent in the wave of transitions to democracy that began in Latin America in 1978 and that it was decisive in many of these transitions. While past work has attributed responsibility to the US for the waves of democratic breakdowns from 1948 to 1956 and 1964 to 1976, an examination of the 27 breakdowns from 1945 to 2010 gives reason to doubt this interpretation. Future research could use these conceptual and methodological tools to explore the role of other powers in waves of democracy and authoritarianism.
Try a hell of a lot better, in every way. Also better than any other empire in human history, and not by a little bit either.
If you’re European, I’m sure you’d agree emphatically with this statement. If you’re a Chilean who lived under Pinochet you might have some reservations about that statement.
We do have the luxury of debating this issue openly in the US, which is nice.
You bring up Pinochet - yes, terrible, every huge organization has egregious moral errors like that. But if you’re bringing up the worst things the US has done, then it still pales in comparison to China literally putting a million Muslims in concentration camps right now.
* concentration camps for Asian-related ( including born in the Us to mixed Asian heritage) people during WWII * genocides against native Americans * sponsoring regimes like Pol Pot, Pinochet, Batista, etc * invasions with hundreds of thousands of casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan * illegal detainment and torture of people in Guantanamo and other black sites
I'm saying you have two separate moral measuring tapes here, one for the West, and one for the rest. Clearly the only current superpowers are the US and China. China's moral performance is absolutely shocking - from state-sponsored cannibalism (read up on the Cultural Revolution), CURRENT concentration camps, supporting North Korea. To most importantly, not feeling any shame about any of the above.
If you want to compare the US to past superpowers, name an empire, and I'll name a list of atrocities that'll make Carter and the Khmer Rouge and Nixon and Pinochet look like a Sunday school lesson.
The US isn't a little angel if seen in isolation. But in contrast to the alternatives it's just wonderful.
I do not. Literally the first post I had in this thread said “better than China”. Please do not make up what I’m saying and argue against it. It is extremely annoying, and eventually I’ll come to the conclusion that you’re just acting in bad faith.
My point is not that the US is worse than China, my point is that the definition of freedom isn’t relative; saying “we’re not as bad as China” is not the same as saying “we’ve protected freedom”. Such a relativistic view of human rights is exactly how you justify a lot of bad shit.
My worry is that there are people would take the bad parts of the Western world / the US and use it to justify ruining or even overthrowing the whole thing.
This doesn’t make what China is doing okay, nor does China make our crimes matter less. That kind of morally relativistic thinking makes it way too easy to justify crimes against humanity.
So what value does it bring to the table to work towards stunting the USA’s military capabilities, besides to boost China and Russia?
Whatever your reasoning, having foreign interests, the means to assertion, and reducing carbon footprint are all issues that can be aligned.
It's not really helpful to conflate them all unless you're dog-whistling. Fear is not a good motivator.
That said I believe the US military is moving towards a greener future where possible. They have invested in renewables since the aughts and are constantly looking at new technologies in the space. Actually a bit of a coveted buyer of tech if you can prove that your product is viable.
China - ~7 tons CO2 per capita US - ~15 tons CO2 per capita
You have to discount the China figure further though because of the balance of goods made in China (and thus CO2 produced) and shipped to the US. I.e. the 15 tons per capita hides the outsourced emissions.
Or you could go for the simpler analysis - which country has huge swathes of it’s population running AC, heating, huge cars and a “disposable” approach to manufactured goods consumption.
As a Chinese national living in the U.S., I would like my fellow countryperson to have the same standard of living as an average American does. Unfortunately this view is not shared by many Americans, including Obama [0].
[0] "...if over a billion Chinese citizens have the same living patterns as Australians and Americans do right now then all of us are in for a very miserable time, the planet just can't sustain it": https://www.abc.net.au/7.30/face-to-face-with-obama/2673356
For the human kind, no there is no doubt that we will survive.
But don't act like it's nothing. Here's one of many examples https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate3322
>Around 30% of the world’s population is currently exposed to climatic conditions exceeding this deadly threshold for at least 20 days a year. By 2100, this percentage is projected to increase to ∼48% under a scenario with drastic reductions of greenhouse gas emissions and ∼74% under a scenario of growing emissions.
If you look at extreme heat events, they haven't changed over the last 150 years. The last thirty years have seen slightly milder winters in the northern hemisphere. That article admits the data on heat deaths is poor, therefore it can't conclude much of anything except to speculate about bogus model extremes.
Scroll down to figure 6.3. You can see that the 1920's to 1940's had more extreme heat events than any time since. Figure 6.4 is also useful to look at.
IPCC AR5 WGI Section 2.6.2.3 says they have "low confidence in a global-scale observed trend in drought or dryness (lack of rainfall) since the middle of the century" https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/WG1AR5_all_f...
As far as model's go, gosh where to begin...
Read the closing remarks here. They admit in far to many words cooking the books or 'tuning' the model to fit what they observed. https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/201...
Another book examining albedo modification admits their futility: "The uncertainties in modeling of both climate change and the consequences of albedo modification make it impossible today to provide reliable, quantitative statements about relative risks, consequences, and benefits of albedo modification to the Earth system as a whole, let alone benefits and risks to specific regions of the planet." source: https://www.nap.edu/read/18988/chapter/4#39
Or just find the climate gate code from a few years back and see how horrendous it is for yourself.
The paper starts with “ United States has increased by 1.2°F (0.7°C) for the period 1986–2016 relative to 1901–1960 and by 1.8°F (1.0°C) based on a linear regression for the period 1895–2016 (very high confidence)”
But reading the text around your chosen chart is even more enlightening.
“ are mainly tied to the unprecedented summer heat of the 1930s Dust Bowl era, which was exacerbated by land-surface feedbacks driven by springtime precipitation deficits and land mismanagement. However, anthropogenic aerosol forcing may also have reduced summer temperatures in the Northeast and Southeast from the early 1950s to the mid-1970s, and agricultural intensification may have suppressed the hottest extremes in the Midwest.”
If you’re going to cherry pick at least do it from a paper that doesn’t counter your argument.
Of course, per capita is not the only criteria to be considered but, those who emit the most per capita and profited the most from fossil fuels should be an example to the world.