Fully Remote: Home Office Should Not Be a Financial Burden on Employees | Hacker News Reader

Fully Remote: Home Office Should Not Be a Financial Burden on Employees

replicated.com

56 pointswalterbell56 comments

How long before employers start renting WeWork-alike spaces for their employees only to realize that they could cut out the middle men and run their own office spaces...

Some of the UK Banks are already there. They've started exploring the deployment of smaller office spaces that are nearer where clusters of their staff live. In fact you could almost call the concept a 'branch office'...

... oh wait, that's exactly what all the Banks have spent the last 10 years closing down.

Well technically the branch office is about being near their customers rather than near their staff.

So soon we should go from these near staff offices to also having them accept customers and considering that in locations, and then we'll be full circle.

Co-founder of Replicated here, a bit late to the party but happy to answer questions. Also, very important to highlight the unique aspect of this program... we now reimburse a MONTHLY home office expense (using the IRS calculation % of square footage of home). We're paying a portion of your rent or your mortgage (as much as the IRS allows), plus other cool benefits.

This is great. Work-from-home is a huge cost of living increase that workers need to be compensated for.

Also, The US tax code needs to bring back the home office deduction for W2 Employees.

When WFH I would like to have a good external display for my laptop. Ditto mouse and keyboard. I would like to be comfortably warm in winter. Being cool enough in the summer is just a matter of opening windows where I live. I would like a decent desk and chair, or standing desk etc. These all cost money. At the moment some of this is born by my employer and some by me. If WFH lasts as a widely available option for several years I expect that the balance of who pays for what may change. Of the costs I listed, heating is by far the biggest deal for me - I live in an old, hard-to-keep-warm house.

But... WFH also brings savings. I used to spend significant amounts of money commuting, which is funny given how much I hated every second of it. That money stays in my pocket now. I know that the option of bringing lunch with me every day was always present, but it is the case that I eat a lot more home prepared food now my office is in the same building as my fridge, so I certainly save a bundle there.

Where I live, there is some provision in the tax code for WFH expenses, but really its so small that it might as well not exist.

What my point in all this? It is that I don't think the issue is nearly as clear cut as you make it out to be. Maybe WFH is a cost of living increase. Maybe it's a saving. Which depends on the nature of your work, the distance you used to travel, the size of cost of your living space and a host of other factors.

The cost of your commute is just as tightly related to your employment as the cost of home office supplies, etc. You wouldn't have considered it as personal savings if your employer was already covering all work-related costs.

If we aren't going to start expecting employers to cover the entire cost of employment, then we should at least be finding a good balance.

Not disagreeing, but there is also a drastic cost reduction from less commuting.

Now I’m also in a state where a 5 bedroom house costs less then a studio in SF. So home space isn’t a big concern.

>huge cost of living increase that workers need to be compensated for.

what is the huge cost of living increase here? i dont have to pay for gas/bus pass anymore, overpriced parking, overpriced food, overpriced coffee. i had a 1 time cost to buy a nice monitor and peripherals but this benefits me as well.

Heating, electricity, furniture, maybe a seperate room, internet.

It's worse the poorer you already are on average, I figure. My cousin was switched to WFH and she had no where quiet to work. Always someone shouting or kids playing too loud. Fixing that sort of issue is not easy when cash strapped. If WFH becomes obligatory there will be some who will have no where to work, in the sense of office space. Seems like a potential poverty trap.

An extra bedroom for a home office in NYC is a significant cost. For a median priced apartment in Brooklyn that will easily be $15-20K extra a year.

For people in cheaper cities it might be less of a burden.

Why does everyone seemed so concerned about home offices being paid for by employees when they weren’t paid for the gas, car repairs or the time spent commuting to work before that?

We lost that discussion before it even began: It was just the standard everywhere, so it was hard for a particular group of employees to change it, especially considering the state and priorities of unions.

Now this is a new development, a new discussion. Workers in tech actually have leverage, so it is a good time and situation to advocate for better rights.

Well, in a very hot labour market in a big city, you will actually have to pay more for workers if you're far enough that people can't take transit conveniently. That means they have to buy a car, and drive it every day, so why take the job paying effectively less? In a sense, the market already is accounting for things like the cost of gas, somewhat. It'll be true for WFH as well.

Other than that, in general, previous wages were negotiated with the old work-in-the-office dynamic. Now that the terms have changed considerably, it seems only natural to ensure one isn't getting the short end of the stick under the new contract. At the very least run the numbers and make sure you break even?

Employees were never compensated for commutes which is usually far worse.

Maybe, but you also know what your commute time/costs are going to be up front so you can calculate it into your wage/salary so you can make an informed decision.

Also, I think you'd be surprised at some of the costs being shoved onto the employee.

Let's take ATT wfh customer service for example. They require you to:

-Have an office closed off by a door and must have complete silence

-Have your own laptop with a webcam that must match X specs, be less than Y years old, and have Z operating system. Must be a laptopfor the Walkthrough.

-Have an ATT approved internet provider with min/max up/download speeds (but if they charge you for installation don't worry! They will refund you up to 100 for the installation. They do also say they will give an undisclosed amount once a month to offset some of the internet costs, and since it's a month behind it's reimbursement.

-must have landline installed and mention no help with installation or monthly bill, and seriously who has a landline any more?

-they require a Walkthrough of your whole living space and workspace and it has to be approved.

-availability is all over the place, they expect you to be able to take any shift at any time, because hey, you're at home, why not?

So let's recap. They want you to go out of pocket to start with them, they require faster internet than their clogged call centers could ever hope to reach (felt like dial-up when you needed to search records, look up resources, etc). You can't have kids around, nor family/roommates. They can access your webcam to spy on you at any given moment. Any shift, any time, weekends and holiday availability are a must.

And this is one of the better wfh companies. The shit I've seen pulled since the pandemic has been mind blowing.

Indeed has become a cesspool of fake jobs, or sales masquerading as customer service, the other day I saw a customer service position that paid salary, yet the actual job paid by commission only, and at the bottom changed it to 'customer success representative,because it was gasp Sales!

I've seen all this helping family/friends try to find real WFH solutions. A few months ago it was possible, now it feels untenable.

If I never one more' customer service' job posting that says 'self-starter/motivated'ot won't be soon enough.

I can't imagine how shitty it is right now for the people that have no choice but to wade through the cesspool that has become WFH

edit-formatting

>And this is one of the better wfh companies. The shit I've seen pulled since the pandemic has been mind blowing.

That's extremely disturbing but it's definitely not "one of the better wfh companies."

I work on my company-issued laptop.

I do it sitting on my couch that I already had anyway,

or at my kitchen table that I already had,

or in my car that I already had,

or in the public library where I can go for free,

or in the shade of a tree on top of a hill kept as open space by the town where I live.

Clearly, there is nothing much that I could be reimbursed for. So my question is, why are so many people so different from me in this respect?

It's great you're able to do your work with only a laptop. Many of us require a few more things, since we spend 6+ hours a day working, like a quality monitor, desk and chair.

Not only that, since we share our space with others (roommates, significant other, children), we may need a dedicated space to not be disturbed.

So my question is why is the above difficult to understand?

Don't you have a home office anyway with a monitor, desk, and chair for normal life things?

For managing your finances, writing to people, planning projects, working on hobbies, and so on?

I'm actually surprised by the number of people I work with that only work off their company-issued laptop (when remote). For myself, I've always had a dedicated office space. But when I went full WFH after a couple weeks my back was hurting bad. I thought my chair was decent but it was a sub $100 chair from Walmart or OfficeMax or similar. Upgraded to a SteelCase chair ($700), and my back has never felt better.

When I lived in a 1BR with my partner, there was no space for a monitor, desk, and chair. We did all computing on our laptops. My experience with most people who lived in the bay area or nyc prior to the pandemic was that they definitely did not have a dedicated space for a desktop setup.

Having a "home office" is not common for people that live in apartments in cities with a high cost of living.

What you're describing sounds luxurious, but perhaps you mean just the basics, a corner in a room.

Often when people say home office they mean a dedicated room, and that's not available to a lot of people. I've wanted a home office for years, as in a small dedicated room, but not lived in a home with enough free space.

Right now I do have a setup like you've described due to pandemic lockdown - but it's right next to my bed. I don't like the commute, it's too short, and it's not much of a thinking space.

It has not been realistic to work on my preferred non-software hobbies for a long time, as I need decent bench space, ventilation, and to be fair to the neighbours, no neighbours. But I like cities and people too much to want to live in the middle of nowhere.

I'm a pacer in better times. I look at pictures of big spaces like the empty Apple building and just imagine walking around all day while doing my thinking occasionally stopping at a desk to break out the laptop. If they ever solve programming while walking I'll be excited to be at the head of the queue.

Before the pandemic I tended to work in libraries and coffee shops, except when working with local clients on their projects, then I'd use their facilities. Interesting labs and workshops, I like those.

I'm tentatively excited though. I just agreed to a real small office rental. Where I live these are surprisingly rare. I'm looking forward to doing my work, my hobbies and my finances there, instead of at home. I'm looking forward to a decent, private thinking space, where I can write on my own whiteboard. Living the dream! Maybe I'll even start writing to people.

> Don't you have a home office anyway with a monitor, desk, and chair for normal life things?

I'm 24 and just starting out my career but currently a house is completely out of my price range. I live in NJ and the cheapest house around is ~340k + ~15k/year tax. That's going to be well outside of my purchasing power for quite some time in the future. I currently live alone in a 1br apartment.

> For managing your finances, writing to people, planning projects, working on hobbies, and so on?

Many of the people around my age are living either at home with their parents or with their significant other + roommates. It's very difficult to find space for 2+ people's desks in a 1br apartment.

If, however, people were guaranteed WFH available positions for some time and we could disperse so that all software engineers aren't crammed into ~6 cities in the world it would be fairly easy for me to get a mortgage on a house in the middle of nowhere for less than what I currently pay on rent [0]. ~3 acres of land, 3 rooms, 2 floors. It's a dream.

I'm personally looking forward to the "fan-out" of talent in the US. As people relocate startups might even start popping up in random locations around the US. People in my age range might be able to start affording houses.

[0] - https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/88-Rambler-Rd-Thomasville...

The company I work for already had a much more expensive chair and monitor than I would buy and let me just take them home. I'd be surprised if that was unusual.

I couldn’t do my work on a laptop in a car.

I don’t even like to eat in a car.

I deal with confidential materials I doubt I’d want to work on in a place like the library, and need very high speed Internet to be productive.

I need a separate space for work otherwise I very quickly devolve into depressing “work from bed” scenarios and end up working all day. I need a place that clearly signals “work” and “not work”. I’d never want to infect my kitchen with work bullshit. That’s my happy place.

A good standing desk, a good chair, 2 or 3 other monitors. These are all standard at my office, but I had to give them up working from home. Total investment if I would have replicated my office environment would have been 2 to 4 thousand USD easily.

Why didn't you take those monitors home with you? Wouldn't they otherwise go sitting unused at the office?

At my company in California IIRC we were told that we were being sent home for just for the duration of a 2 week lockdown. Some people took this at face value. The amount of hardware I'd be willing to haul home for 2 weeks vs 18 months is very different.

So then pick up your hardware when you learn that it will be longer than 2 weeks.

Office was closed except for essential pickups (like medication)

They were installed and mounted to the desk in such a way that it would have been a nontrivial task getting them home. I'm at a large company and they didn't want us going home with them unfortunately.

> So my question is, why are so many people so different from me in this respect?

Ergonomics are important. Working from my couch on a laptop would destroy my hands.

There are other people in my house that need to access the couch and kitchen table. Working from these locations interferes with their lives.

There is no wifi on top of the hill.

My current employer tuned a couple of our current benefits to more remote appropriate when the pandemic hit. Our commuter benefit was turned into a home office equipment benefit and another heath and wellness spending benefit got expanded to cover homeoffice stuff as well.

They have different homes, setups, jobs and bodies?

I can't work on my couch for more than an hour or two, so I had to set up an office space, and sometimes for UI work I need a monitor. I could do it in the dining room, but I eat there with my family.

Working in the car or under a tree is similarly limiting (and why would you want to work in the car?) Maybe even more limiting when you account for bad weather, sun glare and lack of outlets.

Libraries near me haven't had workspaces or even seating for a year now. I wouldn't want to do my job on their wifi anyway.

Personally I got used to two monitors, and I find laptops to be ergonomically awful if used for an extended amount of time. If I'm going to work on a computer for 8 hours a day, I want to make sure I'm not hurting my body with a bad posture. A good chair, a desk suited to my height and monitors set at the correct height is important.

The major concern for both parties is not just the short to mid term cost of equipment and space. It's the long term liability if the employee gets rsi or major Musculoskeletal pain or indeed eyesight issues etc.

I know our health and safety manager expects it is going to be a big issue in years to come. While he cares for human beings those around him are all for the "online training course on WFH best practices". To make the person digitally sign they watched and understood. Also known as give the employer some defence for later claims..

Offering people items from the existing offices which most people simply can't fit in their homes. But again being noted so when people complain... Same is being done by offering people to go in to office.

Those hours crouched over a laptop or sat on a seat with little support won't hurt straight away.

Plenty will on here have a nice home office and chair with good lighting. But plenty in many "office" jobs won't and can't justify.

It won't be those who had a physical job we see in older age hobbling around in the future..

I think that for some workloads is nice and maybe expected for a company to provide a second screen or some basic equipment with the laptop. It is nice they are reusing their savings and helping their employees, that’s awesome and it’s great for their workers.

But outside of this office to home conversion, if a worker is accepting a work from home job, they should be prepared to execute it. The same way one buys clothes for certain jobs that have a dress code. It would be odd to ask the employer for a suit.

It would be analogous to someone accepting an on-site job that they can’t travel to and asking the employer for a car, or an Uber every day.

We consider normal that a person will spend thousands getting to work every year but getting some equipment for less money is weird.

My position is: i think it’s nice and I accept any help, but if I’m accepting a remote job that doesn’t specify that they offer this equipment, I don’t think it’s abnormal for me to prepare my environment to be ready to execute the job I accepted.

I was about to b** and then realized that my employer provided me literally everything in this article. Yeah it would suck to only have a laptop provided. Parts of the office space, ie desk room and chair should be provided by the employee. Essential things which handle business operations should be provided by the employer, ie laptop screens, mouse, etc..

Why shouldn't a chair be provided by the employer? Chairs are ergonomically important and leaving it up to employees could lead to work injuries if they choose cheap chairs.

The chair and desk seem like the employer should handle that for environmental health and safety.

What happens when you quit?

I’m ok paying for that myself, my employer wouldn’t spring for the Aeron and adjustable standing desk I have anyway.

Do you get to keep your other equipment when you quit? The same people who setup your desk would take the desk and your computer at the same time? They are just movers, so its not like they need repo men or something.

Does anyone know of a good whiteboarding solution?

I'm imagining an iPad app for a webapp so those with iPads can draw on the board and everyone else can watch, write, and converse.

Check out these guys: https://www.coscreen.co/

This lets you share your screen, but then still relies on whatever the whiteboard app is that let's you collaborate on the 'picture'. I'm looking for the whiteboard app--screen-sharing options we already have.

I love Miro https://www.miro.com

I've used miro for jamming using stickies and text. I was hoping for something that could take freehand input using a stylus, on a tablet or possibly a large-screen phone.

webex has a whiteboard built in but I've only ever scene junior engineers use it. The older ones tend to buy a physical whiteboard and turn their webcam on.

Yes! https://sharetheboard.com

I dunno, I save somewhere between $500 and $1000 a month by working remote. Going back to the office is going to suck.

My home office is a $200 ikea arm chair and a $30 walmart c table in a corner of my 700 sqft apartment that I only use for the christmass tree.

Working from home makes me feel antisocial and it feels weird. No screen that show humans can replace humans.

WFH is just amazing, if the company supports a standing desk that would be even cool

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