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Comment by GuB-42 | Hacker News Reader

So you want a mechanical door lock, manual windows, no car stereo, no power steering, no thermostat, no cruise control, etc...

The problem with that dumb car is that it is missing that very convenient feature. So you want a dumb car but with feature X, because feature X is really great. But the other guy will not care about X and will think it is bloat, but Y is really important, while for someone else, it will be all about Z.

In the end, to satisfy everyone, you will need X+Y+Z, everyone will think it is bloated but you can't remove a single feature without someone complaining... As in, I want things light but don't remove my feature.

Unless it is custom made bloat is almost inevitable.

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> mechanical door lock

Power central locking doesn't need a microcontroller, code, or a touch screen, or updates.

> manual windows

Electric windows doesn't need a microcontroller, code, or a touch screen, or updates.

> no car stereo

Car stereos do not need a microcontroller, code, or a touch screen, or updates.

> no power steering

Power steering doesn't need a microcontroller, code, or a touch screen, or updates. Hell it doesn't even require electronics.

> no thermostat

Thermostats are mechanical...

> no cruise control

Cruise control doesn't need a microcontroller, code, or a touch screen, or updates.

I do not mind having computer controlled running gear. But I want to own it. No live updates. No wireless network interface to the system software of any sort. GPL software only.

I do not expect to get that soon.

> * doesn't need a microcontroller,

Really?

> mechanical door lock

Push button, engage solenoid, who needs a microcontroller?

> manual windows

Push button, turn on motor, limit switch to turn off the motor when you get to the end. Microcontrollers make pinch detection and calibration nicer though.

> no car stereo

Tons of examples here, a stereo built today would most likely have electronics and/or a microcontroller because it's cheaper than an analog FM radio, but an old one will still work fine.

> no power steering

On my 1978 vehicle. I believe this is hydraulic with a belt powered pump to reduce the user torque on the steering wheel. No electronics, certainly not a microcontroller.

> no cruise control

On my 1978 vehicle. No microcontroller there, just some vacuum linkages. Maybe a bit of electronics to turn things on and off, the switch certainly felt like an electric switch.

None of these things require a microcontroller. Because it's cheaper, almost all of them use a microcontroller on modern cars; thermostats on lower models would probably be the most likely to be a simple system without a microcontroller.

You can save a lot of cabling when you have central message bus shared by different components where a microcontroller decides whether a particular message is meant for this solenoid or that motor.

you also have a single point of failure, which is a double-edged sword.

Yes.. I had a 1986 BMW that had central locking, electric windows, radio, power steering, cruise control and a thermostat (which, as OP said, mechanical anyway).

No microcontroller on that car[1]; it was a very reliable car too (bought it with 50000km, sold it with 270000km and only ever did services. Nothing broke in that time).

Bosch k-jetronic fuel injection, no microcontroller needed.

Since when is power steering a "smart" feature? Power locks and windows are mechanical devices, solenoids powered by the car battery. The only computerized feature you listed is cruise control and we've had that for years and years. I don't think that this is an "either / or" proposition where we have either a car running off bloated software or a car limited to 1950's features. As far as I'm concerned, cars from the mid 1990's to mid 2000's are peak.

This is missing the point - Person A wants their next car to have certain features, but person B also wants their next car to have certain features which person A doesn't want. Car companies aren't going to make 200 car variants with different features combinations, they're just going to group all the features people want into new cars and ship it to everyone. To stay competitive they just put out whatever it going to sell and 90%+ of people are fine with the increasing level of touchscreen controls, so they'll keep moving towards that since it also ends up reducing COGS and simplifies assembly of the dashboard, increasing margin. Person A can not buy the car if it doesn’t suit them.

I was going to say something like this, that products (like a lot of things) are a combination of multiple users' wants, but I'd say that the main problem here is that the implementations themselves are becoming more monolithic.

The extreme case (as you mention) is the moment you stick in a touch screen and a fair amount of intelligence. You might as well put a jillion features in there plus you save money on physical controls.

They used to be capable of building cars with numerous option packages in the 1960's and 1970's, it's pretty remarkable. The 1969 Camaro alone had probably a dozen different engines available from 3 families.

Automation drives down costs for standardized, mass produced items, but it may also remove the economies of scale that made it possible for more variety to exist due to decreased demand for those varieties.

> The only computerized feature you listed is cruise control

Cruise control doesn't have to have any electronics at all either, earlier cars had vacuum actuated cruise control.

Exactly. I remember when the cruise control vacuum actuated cable snapped on my Honda Civic. No more cruise control for me and I could hear the reason why!

But it’s really bad cruise control that ends up costing MPG, s as well.

> So you want a mechanical door lock, manual windows, no car stereo, no power steering, no thermostat, no cruise control, etc...

I think an extremely small minority of people who want a "dumb" car don't want those features. I feel like you're just making up a strawman here. It's pretty clear (at least to me), that the people who want a dumb car are talking about things integrating with your phone or being displayed on a touch screen. I think anything that existed 20 years ago is not regarded as dumb by basically anybody.

I feel like you're just making up a strawman here. It's pretty clear (at least to me), that the people who want a dumb car are talking about things integrating with your phone or being displayed on a touch screen.

Personally, I really enjoy that with our new van I can listen to a podcast/music through Bluetooth and pause/resume playback through a simple touchscreen without having to fiddle with my phone directly.

> Personally, I really enjoy that with our new van I can listen to a podcast/music through Bluetooth and pause/resume playback through a simple touchscreen without having to fiddle with my phone directly.

I'm not sure what your point is. I never said that no one wants these features. Obviously there are many that do.

Attach your phone to a holder. Buy a Bluetooth adapter from AliExpress and your good to go with any car

Exactly. I don't see why a screen attached to the car is somehow superior to the native screen I've been using for years; just put it somewhere accessible. I've found that the CD player mounted phone holders are insanely convenient in almost every car.

It has been a long time since you could get a truly bespoke car from a major manufacturer in a reasonable price segment.

But, you used to be able to order all sorts of stuff - or not order it. For example, you could save a few hundred bucks by not having a rear bumper, not having a radio, opting for manual windows and transmission, opting for no cruise control, etc...

There were a multitude of options and you could add/delete most anything you wanted.

These days, it's down to packages and colors. Often, you can't even mix packages and trying to get manually controlled windows will usually get you laughed at.

Fun fact. On export first gen Camaro you could save a few bucks by ordering them with seat belt delete (A48 option).

Indeed. Before safety belts were mandatory, they were optional on many models.

I'd actually like manual windows and no cruise control, I've had both fail on me many times.

I think you are missing the point. The problem is what do those features mean?

Is the stereo just an AM/FM radio? Does it have a CD player? A CD changer (how many people even buy CDs anymore)? Does it get satellite radio? Does it have AUX input? Does it have Bluetooth? Is there an interface to communicate to the the Bluetooth device (people driving around controlling their stereo from their phone is more dangerous than people doing the same on their car's touchscreen)? Can it stream music without a Bluetooth connection? Does it have Spotify? What about Apple Music? Does it offer handsfree control? And so on.

There simply isn't a universal definition of what a "dumb car" would be and not everyone is going to desire the same set of features.

No I think you're missing the point. I never said there was universal definition. I just said that very few people complaining about smart cars are against features like "mechanical door lock, manual windows, no car stereo, no power steering, no thermostat, no cruise control"...

I can't speak directly for OP, but I think the specific part you are quoting was being facetious. No one would consider power windows as a "smart" feature. But where is the line between a smart power window and a dumb power window? For example, are they just simple windows with an up and down button? Are there options for disabling the window buttons in the back seat for child safety? Are there options for the back seat windows to only go down halfway? Will the windows go down completely with one touch or do you have to hold the button? Can you set the windows to close when you turn off the ignition or lock the car? You might not care about any of those features, but some people will. That is what leads to bloat.

The features you mention aren't any more "smart" than an intermittent wiper is, which was invented long before electronics appeared in cars, much less digital logic.

US luxury cars in 1965 had all the features you mention. They were delightfully dumb and simple to operate. That's what I want now: knobs, sliders, and buttons that move and click when my finger pushes them.

Do you want to pay more for them?

The market does. Porsche will sell you a stripped out version of the car for thousands more. Webbing pull tab instead of a door handle.

Adding labor saving devices always increases the price you pay for a product. I LIKE labor saving features, just so long as they don't get in my way or tell me what to do.

I just want a car to ENABLE me in intuitive ways and that don't go obsolete before the tires need replacing.

Knobs and sliders and buttons all cost money to create, wire in, fix. 1 touchscreen is cheaper.

I'll happily take slightly more expensive knobs, sliders and buttons over a touchscreen.

I know exactly where, e.g. my fan speed knob is and I can reach for it confidently. Or I can take my eyes of the road so I'm not blindly groping around the touchscreen to find the increase/decrease button, assuming its even on the right screen and I don't need to go through several menus to find it. Cost doesn't enter my mind in this scenario.

Electric windows and power steering are unlikely to be tracking your location.

It's not inevitable. At one point we made a 6th gen Honda Civic.

This was literally the pinnacle of dumb cars. Everything could be manual or automatic, but you still got OBDII, warning lights, and of course ABS and air bags. Adding a new DIN head unit, you could have HD radio and Bluetooth completely disconnected from the ECU. I think the automotive industry forgot how to engineer. All the features, all we ever needed in a car, was right there in the late 90s.

Not sure how it is today (haven't bought a new car in many years) but all of these things used to be selectable options a la carte.

It's not particularly difficult for the manufacturer. All the cars had the wiring for all the features since that's the hardest part to do after the factory, but doesn't cost much. Control modules and actuators can be added very late in the assembly line (sometimes even at the dealer prep) so you only get the ones you want to pay for.

Post 2000 and pre 2010 cars are essentially Just like modern cars except without the bloated infotainment crap.

>So you want a mechanical door lock, manual windows, no car stereo, no power steering, no thermostat, no cruise control, etc...

I actually just bought a 2010 which has mechanical door locks, manual windows, and no cruise control. It's great. What's the problem?

> So you want a mechanical door lock, manual windows, no car stereo, no power steering, no thermostat, no cruise control, etc...

I used to own a Datsun 720 pickup (built 1982) that matched this specification. It even had a manual choke; starting the truck without flooding the engine required a bit of skill.

It was the best vehicle I've ever owned. On the rare occasion it needed maintenance, I could do everything myself. I didn't even need a workshop manual, because it was all intuitive.

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