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Comment by diggan | Hacker News Reader

> We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not

I think the assumption is, at least from mine and others like me, is that if your dog is off-leash, you can handle your dog off-leash. The same if you bring friends to some social event, you wouldn't bring them if you can't handle them and they can behave in public. I'm not afraid they are gonna attack me, although sometimes humans do attack other humans, most of them are fine so no need to worry in general.

> but where I’m from we have a scourge of ignorant owners who are not in control of their dogs. They ruin it for everybody.

Yes, I agree, it's terrible when owners have no control over their dogs. But that's not relevant to the leash itself, that's relevant to the expertise of the owner. Dogs on leashes misbehave as well, and can easily (if wanted and the owner is a terrible one) unleash themselves by either raw power or the owner not paying attention.

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> I think the assumption is, at least from mine and others like me, is that if your dog is off-leash, you can handle your dog off-leash.

Which may apply to 90% of off leash dogs. Unfortunately, the other 10% that have dogs that *cannot* be off leash, but do so anyway ruin it for you.

There are people that are afraid of dogs. They have no way of knowing, at a distance, whether your dogs will behave or run up to them. So when they see any dog off leash in a leash required area, they have to take a large detour to give the off leash dogs a wide enough berth.

If you’re in an area where leashes are required, and you have your dogs off leash (no matter how well trained they are) you are being extremely inconsiderate of the other people around you.

As a dog owner as well, I wish there were more acceptable off leash places in society for dogs, and I cherish the areas where off leash behavior is acceptable. But taking them off leash, when others have a fair expectation that they will be leashed is rude and inconsiderate.

Finally, in my personal experience the number of well trained off leash dogs (that can behave appropriately in a “leash required” setting), is nowhere near 90%. In fact, I would say the majority of off leash dogs I run across do not behave appropriately. It’s probably closer to 25% of the off leash dogs I run across that are trained well enough that they behave acceptably in on-leash settings

As a cyclist, I've had a fair share of "well trained" dogs chase me and nip at my ankles. It's scary and usually only ends after I stop, get off my bike and walk back towards the owner so they can regain control.

> Taking them off leash, when others have a fair expectation that they will be leashed is rude and inconsiderate.

This sums it up perfectly. Thank you!

> I've had a fair share of "well trained" dogs chase me and nip at my ankles

Not sure why you say "well trained", the owners have obviously not trained the dog and has no business being off the leash, they are not well trained by any definition and you won't see dogs like that without a leash here in Barcelona.

> > Taking them off leash, when others have a fair expectation that they will be leashed is rude and inconsiderate.

> This sums it up perfectly. Thank you!

So... If there is no expectation of having your dog on the leash, then it's not rude and inconsiderate? Makes me feel a bit better at least, as the expectation here where I live seems to be very different than where you folks live.

> If there is no expectation of having your dog on the leash, then it's not rude and inconsiderate?

Yea, I would agree with that. If there’s a legal expectation, or shared social expectation that an area requires a leash, then it’s rude and inconsiderate to have a dog off leash in that area.

If no such expectation exists, then off leash dogs are much more acceptable.

> the expectation here where I live seems to be very different than where you folks live.

There’s not a single expectation where I live, it varies by the place that you are. In certain areas of the city, dogs are required to be on a leash, while in the rest of they city they are not required.

In most parks in the city, dogs are required to be on a leash, but there are certain parks where dogs are allowed off leash.

My expectations of people’s behavior are largely driven by those laws, as that seems like the best way that we have to create shared expectations about different spaces.

> Not sure why you say "well trained", the owners have obviously not trained the dog and has no business being off the leash, they are not well trained by any definition and you won't see dogs like that without a leash here in Barcelona.

He was using scare quotes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes

> There are people that are afraid of dogs. They have no way of knowing, at a distance, whether your dogs will behave or run up to them. So when they see any dog off leash in a leash required area, they have to take a large detour to give the off leash dogs a wide enough berth.

This is my sister, exactly. At age four she was chased by an off-leash Alsatian and to this day is nervous of any off-leash large dog

> The same if you bring friends to some social event, you wouldn't bring them if you can't handle them and they can behave in public.

No, this is not the same. You are legally responsible for the behavior of your dog.

The legal responsibility angle of this all always leave my head spinning.

If you let your dog off leash in a place where it is illegal to do so, congratulations: you've just lost the lawsuit.

If anything remotely funny happens -- regardless of what -- the liability can and will fall on the dog-owner for their reckless behavior. The real sad part of this is when the dog gets put down for the stupid owner...but my point is the people who let their dogs off leash have also posted a big, red sign saying "I'm responsible for anything happening here" -- even though few of them seem aware of that fact. Liability only becomes a question again if there is another dog-owner with their dog off leash.

Dogs should be treated like guns and other weapons. If a person gets a fine or jail time for shooting someone, a dog owner should get the same if their dog bites someone. If my gun would be taken away if I rubbed it in someone's crotch, then a dog should be taken away if it sticks its snout in someone's crotch. Perhaps one would say "it's not the owner's fault, the dog makes it's own decisions", well that makes it worse. my gun doesn't aim and fire itself. So maybe dogs should be regulated even more than guns.

> if you bring friends to some social event, you wouldn't bring them if you can't handle them and they can behave in public. I'm not afraid they are gonna attack me

Maybe, but I'd still feel safer if they were properly leashed and muzzled.

Just a few seconds of not paying attention are enough when a dog gets excited.

I walk a cat -on a leash- and dogs without a leash are a real problem to be on the lookout for at all times.

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