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Comment by thenoblesunfish | Hacker News Reader

It‘s probably way too late to change the rules now, but even though it‘s totally legal according to the rules on the leaderboards, using a keyboard seems like quite a difference from using a controller, and from the end of the video, sounds like it does make certain moves easier.

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It's complicated. Keyboards are almost certainly 'better' in the abstract if they're good enough (low activation threshold, not a lot of bus latency on whatever you're using to connect it, etc) because it's easier to press complex sequences of buttons when you're not holding the thing you're pressing them on ('fat thumb') or you can choose the layout of the relevant keys (vs. 'claw' or 'piano' gripping a controller).

But there are advantages to controllers too -- it tends to be easier to press two buttons on the same frame for eg.

And the thing is, it's not like there's only one controller you can perfectly standardize on. Even if you require only an 'original controller from the console manufacturer', well does that mean you have to be using the original rubber contact pads? Those are mostly all dead by now. Are all replacement rubbers equal? What about putting tape in the middle of the dpad to make diagonals more consistent?

And then it's also an accessibility issue. A lot of people can't use the original controllers. A lot of people who are otherwise very good at video games. Many of them can't use them because they played so many video games on them and they've gotten RSIs.

All that said there are usually limits. Almost no games allow macros (exception: Celeste allows a macro for a dash technique) or any other "press one button for multiple inputs" kinda stuff. Very few games allow turbo (exceptions: some RPGs do because mashing through cutscenes is very bad for your hands).

A lot of games do require controllers that are at least no more capable than one that came with the console though. But then there are things like one-handed controllers that are no more capable but could potentially change what's easy/hard.

So.. yeah it's complicated. It's just down to the game and its 'community' to decide what makes sense. That's largely how the whole speedrunning world works these days.

But no it's not too late to change the rules. Speedrun leaderboard rules change all the time to accommodate new information, techniques, and glitches. If people who run SMB feel it's unfair, it might change.

>A lot of games do require controllers that are at least no more capable than one that came with the console though.

An example of this would be if the original controller won't let you press both left and right at the same time, and being able to do so gives an unfair advantage due to the way the game was programmed (I think Castlevania SOTN is one of these.)

As mentioned in this vid, there is also a TAS of SMB that uses left/right simultaneously to surpass the human limit

This is generally handled by an input cleaner, either in the controller itself if you hook it up to an original system, or via an emulator if you're using one. In the case of SMB1 L+R is disallowed (and it does give some in game time advantages) and all allowed emulators will give 'neutral' inputs if you press both L and R simultaneously so it will act as if you've pressed neither.

On the NES or SNES and any console with a dpad like those (which was patented by nintendo so until that expired there were other designed), it's actually just physically impossible. The directions are on a physical rocker that can't be pressed in two parallel directions at once.

Though if the controller pcb is really worn down by the rocker's center nub, it can start to become possible, and then there really is nothing stopping you. It's not uncommon for really well-loved controllers to end up like this.

It's definitely a letter-of-the-law thing where you could claim "but it's an original controller!" but no speedrun leaderboard is gonna let you get away with it.

Also I don't think emulators do a neutral input if you press both, that would be quite weird (and unlike how it happens with a real controller when you move from one to the other). Instead I think they prioritize the first input.

Yeah on original NES/SNES controllers the rocker physically prevented this. I was mostly referring to some third party controllers like say the 'hitbox' which go through an input cleaner before sending it to the system.

The way emulators handle L+R depends a bit.. For SMB1 specifically you're allowed to use an up to date version of Nestopia, Bizhawk, FCEUX or OpenEMU, all of which by default give neutral inputs if you press L+R (I don't recall if OpenEMU works this way but I believe it does.) There are other emulators like older versions of Bizhawk which gave priority to your latest input, or older versions of Mesen which gave priority to left and down. I'm sure other methods of handling L+R exist as well.

Which method is most correct is debateable, and sometimes contentious! :)

Fun story: when I worked in videogame QA ~20 years ago, there was a specific Nintendo rule about games not doing anything weird when both left and right were pressed on the controller at the same time (this would have been Nintendo DS, I think). This wasnt possible on a normal console, so how was it tested? We had a special unit that someone had cut the Dpad in half down the middle with a Dremel tool.

From what I've seen, speedrunning communities tend to be pragmatic about that: If something like this becomes a concern, the leaderboards are typically just split and a new category added. (Although I guess for a console game there is a fundamental question if keyboard is an extra category or gets allowed for the "main" one)

For some games there are tons of categories for different variations or restrictions. (It can even happen that when a new fundamental glitch is found, a category "Game X without this one specific glitch" is added if people enjoy running the game without it anyways)

The video mentions that moves that can only be done by pressing right and left at the same time aren't allowed, as that can't be done on a controller. I wonder if keyboard input is tolerated but only if it blocks impossible combinations, or if it's just on the honor system not to do those moves?

It'd be impossible to do that on the honour system. It would take an absurd amount of coordination to avoid ever doing it in a game like SMB, and the effects would be pretty immediately obvious.

If you're using an emulator, you have to enable allowing it. If you're using a hardware adapter you'd have to have your adapter blocking it.

So I'm going to use the GameCube controller with the keyboard in the middle or I'll make a custom controller board or use a high end fighting games pad.

Though an original NES controller speedrun coming close should definitely be a legit accomplishment.

The video mentions this sentiment in passing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rIJNT7dCmE&t=2624s

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