Comment by IgorPartola | Hacker News Reader

Comment by IgorPartola | Hacker News Reader

I am Ukrainian. Came to the US when I was 14. I may never be cool like all the hard looking dudes in movies and whatnot but I smile all the time because either I find something funny in what I’m engaged in or if I don’t that I try to think of it as such. I have always been this way and I can’t imagine not doing it.

Also, I have read a few comments in this discussion about how fake American smiles and “how are you?”s are and I have to disagree somewhat. To a large extent Americans use “how are you” and “what’s up” as generic greetings but at the same time you can often tell when someone is using it instead of “hello” vs having 30-120 seconds to chat pretty easily. If my day is going well I make a point of telling the random person I’m interacting with why that is: “I’m doing great. The weather is so nice and I had a lovely cup of coffee on my back porch today.” Quick interaction, mostly meaningless, but to me it’s a nice way to break up the monotony. On the other hand if I’m having a bad day I don’t feel like hiding it but the trick is to not make it the other person’s problem: “I’m getting by. I blew a tire on the way to work and I just had all four tires replaced. But oh well, that’s just how irony works I guess.” Again, quick and simple and not the typical “fine” response. At worst they go “oh that sucks. Paper or plastic?” but more often it could result in a short conversation and I don’t think there is anything wrong with that.

As a young Hungarian, I used to confuse the hell out of my American colleagues when I went to a "lengthy" (more than 10sec) explanation answering to "how are you?"s. It took my a while to realize why that was. Now it just entertains me how oblivious I was.

OTOH I wouldn't call these "fake"; It's common, it's certainly different than how I socialized, possibly it's greatly misunderstood by many. Along the same train of thought, other languages' greetings would also be fake... After all, how could I genuinely wish a random German stranger a "Guten Morgen" or what do I care if "你吃了吗?" (lit. "have you already eaten?")

Let's rather be grateful for these questions not having to be genuine. Chances are high that when you ask someone today how they are (in their health) or if they ate (because there's no food shortage), then they can simply reply with a positive answer.

"After all, how could I genuinely wish a random German stranger a "Guten Morgen"..."

By being a nice person, just like how one would hold open a door for someone else? Though, that aside, when you say "Guten Morgen", you aren't wishing anything. It's just being polite while at the same time, you are saying something about yourself. For example, you could simply say "Morgen" which would mean you are in a hurry, or, depending on how you said it, that the morning isn't good at all. There are a lot of applications for "Guten Morgen". It all depends on how you say it and in which situation you do it. Anyway, it's not comparable to the questions in your posts as "Guten Morgen" can never be fake. Something like "Wie geht's?" (how are you?) would be more fitting, although it's rarely used as a greeting and more often than not, it would be meant seriously.

This is exactly how "How are you?" is meant in American culture. It's not fake; greetings are culturally determined and especially the most common greeting phrases in any culture should not be treated literally but instead as part of a ritual exchange.

"How are you?"

"I'm well, and you?"

"Great, thanks."

It's just a ritualistic exchange.

See also the English upper-class ritual introductory exchange:

How do you do?

To which the correct response is:

How do you do?

It's not just American. It's very similar at least in Belgium and I suppose on other western countries too

I’ve learned, can’t say if mistakenly or not, that if an American/Brit really expects you to answer, they will say “Are you OK?”

It’s also not universally American. One of the adjustments I had to make in Boston is “how you doin’?” being the start of a leisurely conversation instead of a quick pleasantry.

The Japanese say something like "nice weather, eh?" (ii otenki desu ne? - to which one replies "sure is! - "so desu ne!") -- which is mostly just a semantically little-analyzed pragmatic sequence functioning as a casual greeting.

The accusative case in guteN indeed comes from wishing it for the other (English is grammatically not expressive enough here).

This is the same BTW in Hungarian. Even better, in HU we still have the form of "I wish (you) a good{Acc} morning", however a bit less formal way you can say just "a good{Acc} morning"

This simplification happened to German earlier too. In fact, my German old lady neighbor still to this day says every time: "Ich wünsche Ihnen einen guten Morgen / schönen Tag, Herr kmarc"

Yes and no. It does come from the longform well-wishing but it has been a separate greeting for a decently long time which is reflected by the fact that "guten Morgen" became "Guten Morgen" in the spelling reform 25 years ago. (Though, they did allow both variants a decade later (as is the case with a lot of other words), "Guten Morgen" is still the recommended one.) So that means if you are wishing someone a good morning, you are wishing someone a good morning + greeting. If it is just a good morning, it really is just a good morning (for you) + greeting. I do use both variants but actually wishing someone well is more reserved for people I've been interacting with for a long time (like certain cashiers in a supermarket (if there is time) or employees of a bakery), really friendly strangers or special cases (like someone is being a dick and one is being sarcastic).

The fact that you need 25 years of cultural background to understand what Guten Morgen means is the whole point. You could similarly explain why Americans asking "how are you" is not a real question; the whole point is that the culture differs from the literal phrase, which makes it difficult for non-native speakers.

Not sure why you downvote me for explaining why the language used by an old woman is not indicative of how things are today (or have been for a while even). (Though, in her case, in kmarc's example, the usage of the longform makes sense regardless.) Apart from that, we discussed German terms, not American ones. And, as explained, in German the discussed greetings are actually taken rather literally. At least I believe giving some very small insight into a culture is actually useful but apparently you disagree.

Taken literally? Well, then for "Grüss Gott" I would have to literally believe in god, then die and be lucky enough to go to heaven and greet god there (provided I'd get an audience). I think greetings are a meaningless formality anywhere, just learn them and the expected answers by heart and ignore the meaning.

Please re-read what I wrote. The sentence in question: "And, as explained, in German the discussed greetings are actually taken rather literally."

>> "你吃了吗?"

I was told by a Chinese colleague that this is a very informal greeting, strictly between friends - pals, rather.

I didn't ask, at the time, because I was more preoccupied with trying to pronounce it (my colleague was very helpful). But I would like to know the context behind this. I mean, what is it in asking about having eaten that signifies a greeting?

In Greek, for instance, we say "yia sou" ("γειά σου"), for "hello". It means, basically, "have health". To me (well of course it would) it makes sense to wish something good as a greeting, I think "shalom" for example, means "peace", etc. I don't get the "have you eaten" greeting and I'm very very curious. All help in this matter is deeply appreciated :)

> In Greek, for instance, we say "yia sou" ("γειά σου"), for "hello". It means, basically, "have health". (...) I don't get the "have you eaten" greeting and I'm very very curious.

If you eat well, you'll grow healthy, if you eat poorly, you'll grow unhealthy. They stem from the same principles :-)

Thanks. But, it's asked as a question, no? So, is it like an expression of concern, as if I asked "are you healthy"?

> what is it in asking about having eaten that signifies a greeting?

My understanding is that it's about extending, or at least putting on an air of, hospitality and friendliness.

You sound like a lovely person, Igor. You've gifted many passers-by delightful little blooms of human connection.

I wouldn’t go so far as lovely, but I think I found a way to make my chattiness palatable to others.

I did hear at one point that an exchange of at least seven phrases back and forth constitutes a conversation and that lots of service workers can go a day without one which can lead to depression and such. No clue how true that is but I figure this kind of approach can’t hurt.

I agree in general, but I’d say the quick greeting form of “how are you?” is a bit more than just “hello”. It also asks for confirmation that there is no immediate problem that warrants attention.

If you say “how you doing?” to a coworker in passing, yes it’s weird if they launch into a lengthy report about some malaise in their life, or how they are feeling about something sad they read in the news - that’s not what you were asking. But if they say “A bit stressed actually - our servers just went down!” then that’s not weird at all. So a quick “how are you” really means something like “(a) hi, and (b) no major problems?”.

Dude, you should teach seminars. A lot of people struggle with the tension between being genuine, and keeping small talk "small". It sounds like you've nailed it.

I mean that’s more or less all there is to it. But hey, maybe there is a book deal waiting for me out there :)

> how fake American smiles and “how are you?”s are

Yeah, I wouldn't call it fake, just a different vocabulary, so to speak. You just need to mentally translate it into your cultural equivalent (smile = neutral face, “how are you?” = "hello", etc.)

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