Using the "right" cable is performance optimization. This isn't like the old days when plugging things in the wrong way might damage your machine.
And it's not a remote possibility. It happened to me with a fast charging phone power supply and the phone, and the cable was the one provided by the manufacturer! The type-C connector at the phone side was red hot and started to melt, probably caused by a bad connection caused by dirt in the phone connector. Fortunately I was there, and smelled the burnt plastic and disconnected the cable, but what if that happened at night?
And it's not something trivial that power supplies and phones can detect, there is not a way to determinate the voltage drop in the cable built into the standard (basically all they needed to do was to add a voltage sensing pin on the connector, to be shorted with VCC at the load side, so the power supply could sense the voltage at the other side and determinate if there too much drop, but as far as I know it doesn't have it).
Are we?
I'm not sure how they deliver more power in this specification. But traditionally, the additional power (from 5W to 20W to 100W) was through additional *voltage*, not current.
> And it's not something trivial that power supplies and phones can detect, there is not a way to determinate the voltage drop in the cable built into the standard (basically all they needed to do was to add a voltage sensing pin on the connector, to be shorted with VCC at the load side, so the power supply could sense the voltage at the other side and determinate if there too much drop, but as far as I know it doesn't have it).
Surely we just set a current-limit, written into the specification. Then we choose AWG wires / connectors as appropriate to support that current.
Voltage can't go up arbitrarily, but voltage can safely be increased to ~48V or so in most applications. After 48V, humans start to get shocked / hurt, so that's probably the reasonable limit.
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And I'm pretty sure you can sense the voltage drop across a cable. USB-3 delivers 5V by default, and then you send protocol commands to increase your voltage to 12V or whatever. If you detect that the power-supply is only supplying 11V (after the 12V command), then its either a PSU-error or a cable-error. And I'm not sure if it even matters which is which (either way, you're not getting enough power, so your device needs to probably shut off)
You can then disconnect / reset your device and maybe stick to 5V default specs.
Car batteries in ICE cars are nominally 12v. Grab both terminals and tell me it doesn't hurt.
12v can't exceed the resistance of human skin so it doesn't matter how much current capacity it has. You can hold onto those terminals all day.
It's settled science. If you doubt it, tests of this are all over YouTube. It's just true.
Now your tongue, perhaps...
But yeah, 9V and 12V don't hurt your skin at all. The worst you'll get typically is when you accidentally short it with some metal, and something becomes burning hot really quickly.
But this "burning hot" issue can happen even with 1.5V NiMH batteries or 3.3V Li-Ion batteries (even hot enough to start a fire in your pocket! Like all those vaping accidents).
That's not "shock" or "electricity", that's literally heat from some other thing messing up the battery pack. So its not really the same.
We used it to make jacob's ladders. That was fun.
Until I touched the two bars.
I woke up on the other side of the room, smelling burning...me.
That wasn't fun...
> If you receive a shock, if can affect the rhythm of your heart and cause problems later. We’re taught to go and get an ECG after receiving a shock. Like jump in the car and go to the doctor or hospital, and have someone else drive you. If you’ve received a shock - go get checked out. -jaidan
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2658458/
Bing's answer-mode points here:
https://healthcare.utah.edu/the-scope/shows.php?shows=0_esno...
Always hard to know how cautious to be, with so many variables.
You can go into tachycardia or bradycardia (fast and slow heartbeats), so feeling sort of okay isn't the end of it.
That was nowhere near the stupidest thing I've done...
That level of power delivery is negotiated after the devices are connected. The cable also has to advertise that it is capable of that power delivery.
Only if the cable or device is defective or damaged. Which is true of every type of charging cable or connector.
Yes, that's my experience with USB-C as well.
(Seriously, my Dell laptop and Dell dock connected by a Dell cable can't keep up a reliable connection. People are saying that the spec is fine, but a spec that's this hard to implement well is maybe not fine.)
Either way, this is an incredibly common device that can be damaged by incompatible hardware where it's difficult to determine compatibility without bricking the device.
This is the problem! This is what everybody talking about the specs doesn't get - it's difficult to (1) tell which spec a device claims to support and (2) verify that it actually supports it (see: a lot of cheap devices on Amazon) and also (3) in real life many devices do not support the specs (i.e. this isn't a theoretical problem).
In practice, people aren't going to stop buying nintendo switches, unfortunately.
Still, its not entirely necessary to support all specs or have that be entirely clear, what does need to be clear is if you can expect safety specs to be followed. If I plug in my nintendo switch to a charger thinking it'll charge at lightspeed but it takes hours, oh well. If I plug it in and it destroys the device then that should be pretty much an unforgivable problem. Personally I'd be happy to abstain from buying such a device due to that, though also personally I did buy one, expecting no issues, and only found out months later when seeing it mentioned somewhere online. Ideally research is done on every product to ensure things like this aren't the case, but again in practice, that doesn't always happen.
I'm not sure what the fix is, other than outright making USB not so universal by requiring a license for any and all vendors using the design, if the license is cheap enough, maybe that could work? I don't know the legalities so much but maybe a free license could be required for any implementation, which would only have the spec of "make sure it doesn't brick charger or device, and make sure it doesn't catch on fire"
I'm beginning to suspect The Great Filter is Jony Ive's minimalist design influence: any sufficiently advanced culture will annihilate itself before it discovers interstellar travel when someone connects two devices together that aren't compatible with the equivalent of a One True Connector™ USB cable.
I just took my Samsung A50 out of the case, no USB logo anywhere on the device. There's the Samsung logo, some recycling logo and a CE logo, and that's it.
This is 100% Nintendo's fault for using the USB-C connector type but not actually bothering to adhere to the USB-C specification.
The issue is that they're both not compliant AND fail in a non-safe bad way.
Nintendo doesn't claim compliance, but if they're using the connector shape, it should comply with the spec for power delivery (which is honestly not even hard to do).
MicroUSB devices can also be bricked by using non-conforming cables and power adapters, but fortunately devices like that are rare because the spec has existed long enough that all the bad devices have been flushed out of the market. manufacturers having made stupid decisions in the past does not mean we shouldn't make USB-C better now.
A) Follow the spec
B) Make your off-spec interconnect physically incompatible with standard devices
Going off-spec with a compatible and physically indistinguishable connector is an "attractive nuisance," to use the tort term.
While it's anecdotal, I've been charging Switches in my household with all sorts of USB-C sources for a couple years now as well (20W Apple chargers, 18W Anker bricks, a MacBook Air, external battery packs, 12v car adapters, etc) and they're all still working.
I need assurance though that my cables were carefully designed.
Some people here talked about the Switch; but it's a general problem. For example: I have an external USB drive that has a Type A USB 3 host socket on the back of it (???). It came with a cable with a Type A USB 3 plug on one end and a USB C plug on the other end.
Now that's a combination of connectors you will definitely see elsewhere. I have such a cable that came with my PS5 for charging its controllers - but I know for a fact that it's not interchangeable with the one for my external drive.
Power negotiation applies to USB-A just as it does with USB-C... (I think)
Nope it doesn't.
Then there's the crap offered for sale on Alibaba which somebody will resell on Amazon and which will show up on a checkout rack at the gas station. USB-C has very tight tolerances and unusual material requirements. Dirt or water can create a conductive path all too easily with USB-C pin spacing.
"Decreasing the risk of fire in USB-C connectors" is worth watching.[1] It's an ad for a plastic material, but covers the problems.
https://wccftech.com/macbook-survives-disables-all-usb-ports...
Researchers even developed an exploit for some USB-C fast chargers that forces it to deliver max power and try to catch the connected device on fire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es2SqubYSfo
Some of them were designed for chargers with attached cable, and not disconnectable one.
Many charger ICs emulate the fast charging signalling to trick phones into charging faster, but they of course have no way to check if wiring is ok on micro-usb.
So you can end up with 5A-10A going over flimsy wires/contact pads. Or if they use type-c, they can end up using fake 5A cables. Or in case of VOOC, they don't check if the cable is an actual VOOC cable, which goes over 5A.
Actually they do. My OnePlus wich uses the same VOOC tech will not charge at full power with its fast charger if I don't use the cable from the box.
VooC A to C has a fifth pin mapped to CC pin on C side.
Rogue VooC C to C chargers just send VooC signalling directly on CC.
Red hot metal and smoking plastic.
Of course I suppose products that actually are UL listed on Amazon will already mention the fact somewhere in their description.
That being said I’ve had more issues with low voltage crap letting the magic smoke out than mains powered devices.
[1] https://www.dsm.com/content/dam/dsm/electrical-electronics/e...
That is a fairly significant list of conditions. As an example, I have encountered significant heating in a damaged power cable on the original power supply of a laptop from a reputable vendor. It's easy to argue the owner should immediately replace the damaged power supply, yet many people will continue to use problematic hardware until it no longer functions. It is also the case that many companies will manufacture components down to a price (or, in the case of this vendor, for aesthetics) rather than make something that is robust.
I find it a bit disconcerting that we're talking about delivering 240 W over a cable that consumers are unlikely to differentiate from a 15 W cable (i.e. USB-C specification) or even from a 2.5 W cable (e.g a USB cable they would have used fifteen years ago).
Yes, exactly! It’s foolhardy.
And maybe unnecessary -- haven’t Apple just shown that you can get amazing performance with very low power requirements? And shouldn’t we all be trying to minimize power usage, to try to reduce CO2 emissions, mining of rare and toxic elements, plastic waste, etc etc etc?
There are many domestic devices on 110 / 220v AC using less than 250W. They are native DC, but source AC because they must.
These devices are not likely to go away soon. In fact they'll proliferate so long as the developing world is still developing.
We can also expect proliferation of domestic battery and solar: both DC sources. A standardised domestic micro-grid of DC sources and consuming devices could be a boon to efficiency and reduction of single-purpose conversion devices such as power bricks and inverters.
As an example, every type of e-bicycle currently has a different proprietary adapter. Just as mobile phones once did. Most e-bikes charge at around 40v.
With 250W USB available we will likely see a switch to USB by e-bile manufacturers, resulting in more common lower cost equipment and better interoperability.
USB-C is presumably not the final word in USB connectors. Let's hope for both vision and better implementation.
What's wrong with having multiple set voltages? If it's the necessity of semiconductors, is that really so terrible in this day and age?
On a separate note, I hope they'd have properly managed EMI in this standard. USB has so many makers of varying quality, I can imagine cheap, badly-shielded cables and connectors playing merry hell with noise.
It is, but it's a list of things that could fail even if there was only one kind of cable. The added risk from having a bunch of different kinds of cable with varying capability is quite small.
> I find it a bit disconcerting that we're talking about delivering 240 W over a cable that consumers are unlikely to differentiate from a 15 W cable (i.e. USB-C specification) or even from a 2.5 W cable (e.g a USB cable they would have used fifteen years ago).
All these voltages are low enough that you can expect any cable to support them. What really matters is the amps, and the difference is much smaller there. Specially marked cables support 5 amps. All other USB C cables support 3 amps. Old USB cables will vary, but it's been standard fare to push 2.4 amps over them for a long time.
Why are comments here always so deliberately vague? I'd like to know which manufacturer. It seems like an important detail.
I = V/R
And just this past weekend, a close friend of mine had their Galaxy S6 drain completely to 0 in a minute or two, and then claim water damage in the boot screen (which tests resistance across the port). The phone wasn't wet.
Both times, the phone wasn't even plugged in. I am beginning to look very askance at USB-C ports.
It's a real problem, even if tech savvy people are fine with lower charge speeds because we know that the charger/cable/device combo only supports PD profile whatever.
I'm actually TERRIFIED of pluggin anything in to my kids Switch other than Nintendo's official cable, incase I brick i t.
Does anyone know if they've patched this? I have some Dell laptop charger USB-Cs which I use alot, and I've had to caution everything in the family to never plug the Switch into it despite it fitting and despite every room in the house having such a charger...
- a pixel charger - macbook charger - HP charger
and the Switch works fine with all of them.
OTOH, if you try to use one of those for the docking station, the docking station will refuse to work
I heard that it's because it supports only a lower amount of Watts than what the Macbook charger can provide, for example... (60W or 85W) While other chargers, like the pixelbook's (45W) work just fine
But I agree that it's unnerving: I connected a disposable switch to the cables that I didn't trust, before trusting to use my main Switch with them
For what it's worth I sold the official charger/dock that came with my Switch more than a year ago and have been using only third-party chargers/cables plus a Covert Dock since then. No issues :)
They were right being mistrusting apparently.
I think people are either too young to remember this disaster, or have just outright forgotten.
Now you have to carefully see what the packaging says, which can range from inadvertently unclear to downright misleading. And to add to that, you don't know what to look for in the first place if you don't have prior experience with thunderbolt/usb-c. Example, I didn't know that a cable must explicitly mention DP in order to connect to an external monitor. Because it was the first time I had an external monitor that can use usb-c.
Not really complaining, usb-c is very very nice. Just pointing the minor annoyance of learning its warts.
That it won't damage their device is certainly wonderful, but I definitely think the cons outweigh the pros.
The fact that power doesn‘t just go through a data cable, but actually in all kinds of voltages, useful power levels and in _both directions_ is nothing short of awesome. Fun fact: Didn‘t really find the charching port on my new USB-C power bank until I realized it‘s the same as the output port...
The fact that even degradation is graceful is great. I don‘t always have the 90W brick with me when I‘m on the road with the MacBook, but more than one time I‘ve not regretted at least having a lightweight USB cable in my backpack in order to use a phone charger over night. Granted, I can‘t play games on it in that configuration, but hey, it‘ll still hold up nicely over many hours and I can still work.
Good times!
There is so much variation in the USB spec that a data transfer or a battery charge could take a few minutes or a few hours depending on which cable and which port/adapter you use, with no foolproof way to make sure you're putting together the right equipment, because regardless, it still "works", just not very well.
Don't get me wrong, it's great that it "works". I just wish it was clearer what I need to make it work optimally, aside from just using the one brick and cable that came with my device (assuming I was so lucky).
My current laptop (an XPS 9310) has USB-C for charging. But I would be very reticent to ever charge it with somebody else's cable, and without a 'usb condom' I wouldn't even consider charging from some random public cable (e.g. airport charging kiosks.) USB charging for laptops has the same "untrusted cable" problems as USB charging for cellphones.
Spoken like a true gaslit tech user.