Ask HN: Pain Points of Online Clothes Shopping? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Pain Points of Online Clothes Shopping?

5 pointsMz32 comments

In this discussion http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2726989, three people have already mentioned clothes as an issue. The OP is not considering getting into this space. Just wondering if we can have a separate discussion and elaborate on why people hate shopping for clothes.

Thanks.

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I will qualify my response by admitting that I actually enjoy shopping for clothes, just not online.

Shopping for clothes online is sort of like walking around Manhattan with a blindfold on. You've got no idea what you're getting into and more often than not, you wish you could rewind and make different choices.

Consider the variables that go into clothes shopping.

Size/Fit - This one drives me insane - I've got an extra 15 or 20 pounds around my waistline so size and fit are especially important to me. Some clothes, while 'my size' don't fit well, to the point that I can't wear them and have to return them. Change rooms are my friend! :)

Colour - There is a huge difference between the colours you see online and the colours you see in person. This makes buying a single item from one store to go with an item from another store rather difficult.

Fabric - Call me a wimp, but I don't like rough fabrics, so I'm on of those annoying shoppers who puts his hands on everything. When I buy online, I'm keenly aware that I could be getting a burlap sack...

Then add in two sales forces:

Immediate gratification - When I was in University, I had a part time job in retail (slanging suits). That was my first taste of working in a mall and I was amazed by the dynamics of it. Specifically, how many people would walk by, see something they like, and come in to purchase it. When I saw the behaviour in others, I became keenly aware of it in myself. Honestly, I'd say that at least 75% of my clothing purchases are like that - I walk around in a mall, randomly see something in a window, and make the purchase.

The upsell - A good employee in retail is a dangerous thing because he/she is the person who will take that immediate gratification purchase and turn it into two bags full. I think I have found some of the coolest garments I own through the upsell and I love the process. Unfortunately, I have yet to find an online shopping site that is really good at this!

Between those things, I would much rather shop in person than online. Is it just me, or is there an idea in here somewhere?? ;)

Thanks for your lengthy, detailed reply. I've thought about a lot of these except the upsell.

For fabric, would free fabric samples help win you over?

Good idea on the samples - I think that samples would help win me over, but only if these two conditions were true:

- I absolutely love the garment in question. - I cannot purchase it (or a reasonable substitute) in person.

The first condition is necessary because if I don't love the garment, there is a low chance that I'll give the samples the attention they deserve. So, the chances of a conversion would be very low. The second one is important because if I love a garment enough to buy after a long wait, I'm going to be aching to own it.

Regarding size/fit see my other comment.

Colour and fabric - While this will never be the same as buying in person, I think the situation can be vastly improved by crowdsourcing real photos and videos (not fake photoshopped catalog ones you see on stores).

Upsell - I fail to understand why online stores (Amazon!) don't have live help. I bet it would increase conversions.

Most people don't shop online because of various fears and trust issues, which I think can be addressed if someone really tried.

I think these are great ideas! Thanks for commenting.

"Upsell - I fail to understand why online stores (Amazon!) don't have live help. I bet it would increase conversions."

That would be more labor, and maybe not enough upside in the upsell to make it worthwhile. Amazon has staked out the low overhead space for the sweet spot they're aiming at. They have robots pull orders in the warehouse.

But Amazon clearly understands the value of going overboard for excellent customer service, otherwise they wouldn't buy Zappos.

I agree with everything above. I've always cared about the clothing I wore but used to loathe clothes shopping. Mostly because I didn't know what I was doing. Then I dated a girl in the modelling industry and she changed my whole perspective and taught me about clothes.

Now I love shopping for clothes and can't fathom how it could be done better online, but I'm positive that the in-store tech could be leaps and bounds better.

To add to the above:

- Fit of the garment is probably one of the most important things. You simply cannot tell how it will fit on your body without trying it on. You need to see it and put it on.

- Quality of construction. This includes the feel of the fabric, the way the pieces are sewn together, what shapes were chosen for each piece, and even things like if the patterns line up at the seams. You have to see these things in person to decide.

Having said that, most men probably aren't as picky about their clothes as I am (Most women I know are more so) and there may be a market for online shopping for those men who aren't. But I can see a place for helping me pick clothing in store or on my trip.

It takes forever to find stuff that I might like or that might fit. Why not help me with that? An app for my phone that tells me when some local shops get a shipment of Tiger of Sweden suits in my size or recommends a local shop that has suits that are cut similar to Tiger's would be awesome. I also used to travel a lot, just tell me where those shops are when I'm in a new city and BAM! I'm there. It's hard enough to find the right clothes in my city, it's really difficult to find clothes in a new city that work for my style. I want an app like that. Wait, maybe I don't, it might cause me to spend more money on clothes and my bank account wouldn't appreciate that.

It takes forever to find stuff that I might like or that might fit. Why not help me with that?

Thanks.

Any particular reason you have so much trouble?

I'm curious about all this because I was talking to a friend and realized that my lack of concern about such things is due to the fact that I know a lot about this stuff. I routinely go eyeball stuff, take it to the checkout and bring it home without trying it on. Only if my size has changed substantially do I bother to try things on. Once I have figured out my correct size again, I go back to grabbing stuff off the rack, paying and going home. So wondering why other people find this so hard, since I can't really relate to that.

Thanks.

Any particular reason you have so much trouble?

I live in a small North American city (750,000 pop), a jacket size of 36 (Maybe a 38 in some places now), a waist size of 30/32, and prefer European constructed clothing (See Tiger of Sweden's website) which is damn near impossible to find unless you go to the larger more fashion-forward cities: Montreal, Toronto, New York, San Fran, LA, etc. And since I'm not a local I first have to find the places that have the right kind of clothes and then I have to decide what I like.

I have three sisters, they have far more options for clothing than I do. I believe it's much more difficult for men to shop for clothing because we have fewer options and if we want good stuff we have to pay a lot more for it. In my experience there is good cheaper clothing for women. Not so for men.

I have shopped with many women and while dating my ex spent a some time around women in the fashion industry. If you're purchasing clothes off the rack without trying them on I'd wager you're an outlier and not the norm.

If you're purchasing clothes off the rack without trying them on I'd wager you're an outlier and not the norm.

Yes, I am. And I am aware of it. It is not how I handle shopping all the time, but I do it quite frequently. I also do the same thing for my sons/with my sons. They have a yawning disinterest in clothes and have learned to touch it (to check if the fabric is acceptable) and choose clothes off the rack without trying it on in most cases. In a pinch, I have them hold it up against themselves to eyeball it. Granted, our lifestyle allows them to currently live in shorts and t-shirts, still they typically look pretty good in their clothes in spite of all that and a yawning disinterest.

So trying to understand how others experience this, because generally speaking, even when I try clothes on, the first few things I grab are typically the best choices available in that store for me and the longer I shop, the worse everything is because I already determined just by looking at everything what my best bets were and there isn't anything better. I know what cuts, colors, patterns (as in plaid/stripe/floral), materials, etc work for me and can eliminate most items that won't work without having to go to the trouble to try it on.

Thanks for your reply.

This is exactly the thing we're trying to solve for guys with Bombfell.com. The way I see it there are 3 main problems with shopping online (or shopping for clothes in general)

1) Sizing/Fit: A medium in brand X can be very different than brand Y. So you never end up knowing if what you're getting is actually going to fit or not until it arrives at your door.

2) What to get: There's a tremendous number of brands out there with different styles/patterns/cuts etc. What's the best style that's going to accentuate your look? What cool brands are out there? It's nearly impossible to know these things unless you devote a significant amount of time to reading up/learning fashion.

3) Taking the time out to buy stuff. Certainly this is better online than offline, but shopping online certainly requires a mental-tax and context-switching that I'd pretty much rather avoid.

We thought it would be awesome if clothes that look good and fit great just magically appeared every month and so we're trying to solve that problem with Bombfell.com.

Clickable: http://www.bombfell.com/

Bombfell looks fun, but I wouldn't sign up unless I saw some photos or videos of clothes you have/had in stock. It would take a lot of trust for me to hand over $69 to an unknown company without even seeing what they sell.

Take a look at our featured brands section: www.bombfell.com/threads

We also don't charge your card until you decide to keep the clothes we send.

Online shopping for clothes is not sufficient for those that believe that fit is paramount, both in sizing and material (tailoring and suits aside aside).

As sixtofour said, you can’t reliably shop for size online unless it’s something that most companies are consistent on, like a t-shirt. Even then I wouldn’t buy a t-shirt online if I haven’t tried it on before: again, fit is paramount and I need to be reasonably sure I feel comfortable in it. Anything below the belt is pretty much out of the question because they are probably the worst culprit of this inconsistency.

Regarding the size problem, one idea I've had is to create a set of "sizing" clothes, which you send to new customers for free. They return them to you indicating which size fits best. You keep a record of that to match all future purchases based on the dimensions (not just broad size category) of the best fit. You could probably also do this by asking people to send in their old clothes which fit them well. You just use the clothes for getting the measurement and donate them to charity.

This kind of assumes that people don't change size. In my experience, this is not true. I'm female and for women this seems especially problematic, especially once they start having kids. This also sounds to me like a fairly expensive solution for the business. But thanks for the feedback. It's good food for thought.

I thought of that issue, but clothes sizes probably don't change that often for most people.

I don't think it's an expensive solution either. Think of it as a customer acquisition cost. Almost anyone would accept free clothes.

Edit: Let's not forget Zappos is killing it. Maybe fit is not that big an issue and can be worked out over a couple of purchases.

Zappos is killing it? I take it you mean they are very successful in this space? Any data/thoughts/whatever?

Thanks

"create a set of "sizing" clothes, which you send to new customers for free. They return them to you indicating which size fits best."

That sounds brilliant on first reading. I think it would take a lot of work and research to make it work, but man what a killer if it does work.

I don't think people change sizes that often, but that's solved by "Does Item XYZ still fit well, or should we send you another set of sizers?"

Note: this has been a surprisingly interesting thread. I really don't care about clothes, as long as I don't look like a derelict. But it's been fun to read and comment.

Actually, my line of thinking has been more along the lines of an online sizing tool that could be implemented by anyone who owns a tape measure. I can't sew, but I did learn to take measurements as a kid (and I'm handy with a seam-ripper...and a few other things).

Also, I get away with grabbing stuff off the rack in part because of the types of clothes I buy. I strongly favor knits, jersey, and stuff with a smidgeon of spandex. I have a serious medical condition and I suffer edema. I can bloat up so bad overnight that people will congratulate me on my pregnancy (probably in part because they all think I am in my thirties and I am so NOT). So I can't wear anything too fitted because it may not fit from one day to the next.

As I get healthier and these issues resolve, I am finding that I no longer qualify for "women's" sizes and am beginning to have some of the pain points I had in my youth: Tall, thin women have a tough time finding clothes that fit properly. (Men get "big and tall" shops. Women get "petite" (short) and "women's" (fat).) When I was younger, I sometimes fantasized about learning to make my own clothes. That never happened. These days, I fantasize about starting a factory to make the kind of things that work well for me and, oh, turn a tidy profit at the same time. Time will tell if such thoughts lead anywhere. In the mean time, I am contemplating how to address such topics on various websites I own.

Thanks so much for your generous contributions to the thread.

Unless you already know how the sizing runs for a particular brand/model, its a crap shoot in terms of if it will fit. This kills the incentive to choose 'something new'. Most often I end up buying replacements for or variants of stuff I have already.

You cannot reliably shop for a size. No two shoes are sized the same, no two shirts or pants. Except for Tshirts and underwear you MUST try something on to be sure it's comfortable.

Yes, this is a significant issue, both online and off. But what if there were an informational solution to this issue? What if a site could give you sufficient data/means to determine the answer?

Thanks for replying.

Then I'd probably buy online more often. Certainly the available choices would be better.

I buy a particular model of athletic shoe in part because so far (third pair) the manufacturer hasn't messed with the model, so the sizing hasn't changed. But I still go to the store to try them on.

I will try on five or more pairs of shoes in a store, and sometimes still won't buy a pair. Free shipping both ways doesn't fix that for me.

Hoping this is not taken as offensive, but do you do that with all clothes or with shoes in particular? If it is only shoes, do you have some foot issue. (My oldest son has one foot slightly larger than the other and this makes shoe shopping a challenge for him. He sticks to sandals in part for that reason.)

Thanks for the feedback.

My feet may be slightly wider than manufacturers want to fit. It seems like shoes don't come in widths anymore, "just the sizes you see here mate."

I also try on shirts and pants a bit before buying, but shoes seem to be my bigger problem.

It's actually not an uncommon problem. When I had a zillion clothing books and fantasies/aspirations of becoming an image consultant, I read that one thing that at least one image consultant did was hook people up with specialty folks to address specific problems. One of these folks: A woman who made custom shoes for like $300/pair to fit your feet properly if you had foot issues. And people who bought those shoes felt they were well worth the big ticket price. (And this was some years back when $300 was a bigger sticker shock than it would be now.)

Thanks for replying.

I want to thank everyone who has replied so far. I have a huge blind spot in this regard. I was born with the proverbial silver spoon in my mouth when it comes to clothes:

My mother sews beautifully and made a lot of my clothes as a child. She also has crazy mad shopping skills and routinely bought things for me as a kid without me trying them on. I would come home from school and there would be something hanging on my bedroom door and the question was not "does it fit?" it was "do you like it?" She still routinely buys clothes for some relatives without taking them with her. I do this kind of thing for my sons as well. My sister routinely bought clothes off the rack for ten years without necessarily bothering to try them on (I think this changed after she had a baby). When my sons were little, my mother sewed a lot of their clothes and mailed it to us. I occasionally took their measurements and let her know the updated measurements. She can buy you a winter coat for Christmas one year, mail it to you in another state and not see it again and buy gloves the following Christmas that are a perfect match in color (I don't have such amazing perfect color memory -- and the woman is blind in one eye).

I tend to give clothes short shrift, because it's not a big deal for me. A recent conversation with a friend made me realize that. I would like to do something, of some sort, in the clothing space. Still not sure what.

The feedback here is much appreciated.

Hire your mum as a consultant.

:-)

Yes, that thought had crossed my mind. Still contemplating where I want to go with this.

Thanks.

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