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Comment by hyperman1 | Hacker News Reader

Belgium implemented partial free public transport for the elder. It mostly works, but there were some perverse incentives.

Specifically, some elder people are so bored they climb on the coastal tramway early in the morning, then go up and down and up and down the line for the whole day. There were problems with some elder people starting fights because someone else took 'their' seat, even in an almost empty tram.

One thing they did as mitigation was force everybody off the tram at the end of the line, which causes much moaning up to this day.

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In Philadelphia, people do this on the subway. They pay a token to get on (or they ask someone for a token if they can't afford it) and then once they are on no one will ask them to leave. They can just keep riding all day.

I think this points to another problem that needs to be addressed. It is a helluva thing if the best thing you can do with your day is ride the subway all day long, and some homeless people just feel safer on the subway (and I can't blame them).

Different problems, as in Philadelphia these are not retirees but people trying to escape the street.

How bad is the street in Philadelphia?

So bad that drive-through videos of Kensington are their own _genre_ on YouTube.

>Specifically, some elder people are so bored

This sounds like a problem on its own. We should avoid having people bored with nothing to do. Letting them sit on a train all day might actually be a very cheap way to entertain them and improve their lives.

In large cities, there are many many things that elders can do, and many elder groups/clubs doing many different things. Sitting on train and taking space away from people who actually need to get somewhere is a bad solution.

Those clubs cost money to run if they are funded by the government. The per seat cost of public transport is pretty low comparatively.

I wonder what is the cost of accelerating 60kg to 40km/h every 2 minutes for a day.

Probably less than many other forms of entertainment.

I'd say its almost free compared to the alternatives like community programs/activities. It doesn't sound as fulfilling but if someone can entertain themselves by sitting on their own on a train, let them go at it.

Approximately 0.03% of the cost of accelerating the locomotive by itself.

Given m = 60 kg and v = 40 km/h, the kinetic energy is

  K = 1/2 * m * v^2 = 3.703 kJ

Acceleration is not going to be 100% efficient, so let's round that up to 10 kJ. We also need to decelerate, so let's assume the same amount of energy being put in to do that. 20 kJ every 2 minutes for 12 hours comes out to 2 kWh total. For electric trains, you can map that to a cost using your local electricity prices, but keep in mind that public transit operators purchase electricity wholesale and probably get a cheaper price than residential users.

(Also note that my estimations are intentionally pessimistic to map out the worst-case scenario. Energy efficiency is probably better than my assumptions, and trains may have some sort of regenerative braking.)

In a way, maybe this really is one of the ways of fixing that boredom. You give them empty seats which wouldn't be filled and they are less bored. In any case, I feel like in eastern Europe 95% of retired people are bored every day for the rest of their life. If they aren't doing gardening or people watching there is nothing else they know how to do except watch TV.

Lol just a thought but I’m imagining being one of those people you mentioned and I would feel like a sim!

In Eastern Europe most of the old people get out at 6 going to the park benches and talking all day (in warmer months; if living in towns/cities)

The other spend almost all day gardening/field work and, like you said, watch TV.

However, I am concerned for the working-age people, as noone really seems to have a hobby. Most people just scroll Facebook and watching TV. In most circles, you might even be looked at funny for spending money on a hobby that isn't fishing or hunting (like playing around with electronics, without making money off of it)

Talking to whom? At 75 half your friends and family are dead. At 80+ you are pretty much alone except for children and grandchildren if you have them

Old people get free bus travel in the UK (availability outside your local area varies but is usually fairly complete), there's the occasional story of someone travelling the length and breadth of the country for free

I don't recall any reports of a paying passenger being unable to board a bus because of it though, so if the bus is going to run anyway, simply tax wealthy pensioners a little more and use that to subdise any loss in revenue

(of course the government would never put a tax on wealthy pensioners, that's what working people are for!)

I was going to say, another reason why public transit isn't free is because of abuse. Some people are bored - I know I went on the tourist tour buses just to pass the time or get around, pretty decent deal that way. Others because they have nowhere else to go. But those factors are mere symptoms of different problems that should be addressed as well.

I'm all for free public transport, it's great, it allows social mobility, it allows people to get to work, to not be bound to their location and transportation, and it reduces congestion and pollution - assuming it's electric and has enough capacity, of course.

I can totally imagine myself doing this when I'm old. I just love taking the train along the coastal line.

A different but similar issue is that it disincentivizes trips by foot or bicycle, at the expense of a bigger load factor for public transport.

What’s the problem with getting back on at the last stop

It often requires a 10-30 minute wait outside, since the return journey doesn't normally start immediately — to allow the driver a toilet break, or provide some slack in case of delays.

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