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Comment by throwaddzuzxd | Hacker News Reader

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced.

- There's no way to create an empty file

- There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work)

- There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned

- ~~Tags are useless and just take up space for nothing~~ This one is entirely subjective. I retract it.

- No "parent folder"...

There's some great features in Finder but it sucks at so many things it's just frustrating to use. Windows Explorer is infinitely better. It has less cool features (no tabs for instance) but is so much better to actually use.

I get that some features are hidden to avoid confusing non savvy users, but preventing experimented users to do basic stuff is criminal.

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> There's no way to create an empty file

This is one of the features I never miss and don't use on any other DE (like KDE). I just open the app, create the file and save. Maybe it's just habit, but I personally doesn't find it as a needed feature.

> There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work)

Just drag it where you want while pressing CMD? I know it's not cut but it prevents a lot of errors I think.

> There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned

It's called "Clean Up By". Available in right click menu and in the top menu probably. It'll always keep the order you choose.

> Tags are useless and just take up space for nothing.

On the contrary, this is something I love. I can just throw a bunch of files to a folder and tag them about what I'm going to do with them. Colors allow me to mentally sort them with no overhead.

> No "parent folder"...

Two-finger click to folder name on the finder. The path will be revealed as a reverse-ordered stack. Or just press back. It's parent folder 99% of the time.

"Clean up by" is still a manual thing you have to do regularly? My downloads folder looks like a mess because files constantly get added/deleted from it via the Dock.

No, that's "Clean Up", which just aligns & tidies stuff a little. "Clean Up By" is automatic.

I generally disable "Clean Up By" because I love to visually group my folders for some types of folders. e.g.: Assets there, source files here, readme and docs to that corner, etc.

However, sometimes an orderly folder is required and I enable Clean Up By date for example. That folder is always sorted by date.

> No "parent folder"...

or CMD+UP

>> No "parent folder"...

> or CMD+UP

There's also a control that lets you jump to any ancestor directories, but it's not enabled by default.

> This is one of the features I never miss and don't use on any other DE (like KDE). I just open the app, create the file and save. Maybe it's just habit, but I personally doesn't find it as a needed feature.

To give perspective, I do weekly. I work often files that I need to modify or create files that have no native apps with UI. Key files, certs, etc.

Also, its way easier when working to just create file in already open dir than go open a program and try to navigate to the dir you already are. Eg local web development, I'm 10 dir deep somewhere obscure place.

I'm on windows.

> Just drag it where you want while pressing CMD? I know it's not cut but it prevents a lot of errors I think.

That requires you to have both places visible on the screen at the same time. It's also a mouse+keyboard interaction, the least usbale kind of interaction.

> That requires you to have both places visible on the screen at the same time.

You can drag a file across tabs, folders, dive in folders in finder, drag it across desktops and more.

> It's also a mouse+keyboard interaction, the least usbale kind of interaction.

I don't know you, but my left hand is on the keyboard all the time, and my thumb is on the command almost 99% percent of the time. It's just an instinct-like action for me.

Also, you can use cmd+opt+v it seems. TIL that.

No it doesn’t, Mac has spring loading for exactly this reason. This is a feature which has existed on Mac since before I OS X. Learn the system properly before assuming it is crap or simply ask.

You can use "move item here" (CMD + ALT + V) after you copy a file.

Speaking about discoverability, I've just found it a few minutes ago searching for "move" in the help menu.

> It's called "Clean Up By". Available in right click menu and in the top menu probably.

And you cannot apply it to all folders across the entire system. Why they still haven't fixed tis, is beyond me.

You can. View menu --> Show View Options. Customize to how you want it, and click the "use as defaults" button.

I've seen people mention it on the internets for the past few years. I've never had this button on any MacOS version. Currently on Catalina: https://imgur.com/a/D9Kbob1

It's there: https://imgur.com/a/JVnaSjb

Try pressing cmd+j on a finder window.

Where do you think I pressed Cmd+J?

Sorry, I misread your comment and didn't see the link. I thought you've said that the options just don't exist.

When I checked on my El Capitan Mac (an Early 2008, non unibody MacBook Pro), opening my home folder in icon view and opening view options shows almost the exact screenshot I've shared on my previous comment, including "use as default button".

Moreover, any view except tri-column view produces a view options menu with "use as defaults" button. It has to be a real folder. All My Files is a view and is subject to different treatment. It may be the same with tri-column view because parent-sibling is blurred with multi-level view.

OMG :facepalm: I can't even begin to imagine who coded this, and why?!

Basically:

If you open a folder from a "shortcut" from the sidebar, and press Cmd+J, you get the barren options from the screenshot: https://imgur.com/3meteoB. And it doesn't matter if you keep clicking on other folders

Since I always use just a few folders linked from the sidebar, that's what I would always get.

To get to the "actual finder window", you have to select a folder, and press Cmd + Down to "open it". Visually, nothing changes. But the View Options do: https://imgur.com/EJuqWDC

It still doesn't have the "set as default", but, at the very least, it now looks more like your screenshot.

I'm literally at a loss for words.

Edit: more over, if you Cmd+Tab back, and your current folder is a subfolder of an item in the sidebar, the Cmd-J panel resets back to its barren view. Why?!!

Interesting. I never noticed that because I've always used List or Icons as the default view in Finder (Command+1 and Command+2).

Personally, I'd recommend just not using the Column view. It seems pretty janky compared to the other options.

For what it's worth, Command+[ and Command+] will move back/forward between folders, just like Safari and elsewhere.

Holding down Shift with those commands will move between tabs in Finder.

I don't even understand how you got to that "barren view". I've never seen that in my life.

Edit: I guess that "barren view" only happens when viewing things as "columns" mode. I just figured out how to make it look like yours. I always use list mode (as I often want to see/sort by date modified time or file type and I want to see file sizes). Columns view seems like a waste of screen real estate.

It has nothing to do with the sidebar. In column view it doesn't know what folder you're viewing so there's no display settings it can set because that's a per-folder option.

Edit2: I see your "less barren" options now, but it's still missing several options. And you don't need to do "Cmd+down", you can just double click a folder. This presumably forces it into understanding you're talking about a specific folder so it can display additional options.

Also it doesn't even appear to work, those extra options showing up is apparently a bug as none of the options change anything.

Haha. This is getting curioser and curioser :)

Finder is seriously broken

That's right. Regarding your last point about two-finger clicking on the folder name to show the path, you can also go to "View > Show Path Bar".

That will show the full path along the bottom, and you can move to any parent folder by double-clicking on it--which is, perhaps, not exactly intuitive :-).

> Just drag it where you want while pressing CMD? I know it's not cut but it prevents a lot of errors I think.

Try making this trick work when your destination is three levels deep into a different hierarchy. Oh yes, you should have thought about it beforehand and opened two windows and pre-arranged them in a way so you can drag from one to another, because it's so intuitive! And yes, the metaphor of "take from one place, drop into other", which worked with documents, is completely broken, but somehow we pretend it still exists. And the worst thing - there's no reason for it to be this broken. It just is.

> It's called "Clean Up By". Available in right click menu and in the top menu probably.

I just checked, it's always greyed out on my finder. Who knows why, it's probably intuitive.

> Or just press back. It's parent folder 99% of the time.

Except no, it's the folder which you saw before that, which doesn't have to be parent at all.

> Try making this trick work when your destination is three levels deep into a different hierarchy. Oh yes, you should have thought about it beforehand and opened two windows and pre-arranged them in a way so you can drag from one to another, because it's so intuitive!

I regularly do this to be honest. I drag the file to my home or Dropbox folder and dive from there. I also regularly drag and drop files from finder to any other application, not just three folders, but three desktops away. It might not be OK or comfortable for you (which I understand), but writing with laser-cut assumptions and prejudice doesn't help.

> I just checked, it's always greyed out on my finder. Who knows why, it's probably intuitive.

If you're in list view, you can always click column headers, just like a particular Redmond OS allows to do. Also there's a sort by menu, which is operational in all views as I just checked. I think again a particular Redmond OS also calls this strange and magical ordering process the same.

macOS works differently, and it goes against some conventions on other OSes, I know. However, I don't get agitated by this, because how it's evolved and it's consistent in its own world. I actually like how it doesn't imitate anything else. It's same for Linux. Again backwards in some parts, but consistent in its universe of things.

The funny thing is, I booted my Windows disk this weekend for steam stuff and for keeping the OS up to date, and a lot of things felt backwards. However, this is again consistent in Windows universe and it's OK.

Again, I want to reiterate that, there's no one-and-only-one correct way to do things. We need to embrace this differences. This is what moves UI/UX research forward. I personally don't whine. Just adapt and love how quirky a UI is. If it's that broken, I patch it, or just submit bug reports.

From you repeated mentions of "Windows" I assume you somehow have the idea there's only two ways things could be - like they are in Windows and like they are on macOS. I haven't used Windows since.... oh my, I dunno, since XP was new and fresh? Maybe a bit later but not for a decade by now. But I've certainly have some habits from using various systems - including Windows. Which hasn't been very intuitive - nobody can say that the system where you click on "Start" to shut it down is intuitive - but at least they wouldn't be so arrogantly smug about being what they are not.

> I assume you somehow have the idea there's only two ways things could be...

No, I mentioned old UNIXen, Linux, and other OSes on my other comments. I do not bring them to table since Linux and other UNIXen Desktop Environments are much more flexible and can be customized to much greater extent, so if something feels wrong, it can be modified easily.

I put Windows vs. macOS because they're arguably the most popular consumer OSes on the market right now. Personally I don't use Windows unless I want to play some games (which happens twice a year at most) or need to manage my parents' computers.

I probably came accross as a macOS fanboy, but I'm actually not (honestly sorry about that). I just like the philosophy behind it and how fast and efficiently can work on that. I can work as efficiently on Linux too (and it's my primary OS on my workstations for ~20 years or so).

The thing I don't agree is labeling of any system of being incapable of something while it's certainly capable but this capability is built with a different design/philosophy and works somewhat differently. If these comments were about Windows, I'd be defending it and its heritage. If it was about Linux, I would certainly do the same with the same enthusiasm.

At the end of the day, it's not fanboyism about and OS, but a rather sympathy for the machine. Understanding how its innards work with as a result of different thinking and how one needs to be flexible and needs to look a little differently to the matter at hand, which is a very useful trait to have.

This is always the argument used by fanboys, "you're used to Windows crappy way". For them there's no way macOS can actually be suboptimal in its own ways, even without comparing it to something else.

I love Apple products and to be honest I generally like macOS too but these responses are ridiculous.

It's not that Windows Explorer is much better, though. I hate how it prefers to display everything as icons instead of details. How it hides files and directories, doesn't show extensions, etc. But there's one thing it gets right: it shows you where you are, and you can edit that to go anywhere.

Finder can do that too, but it doesn't show you it can do that. You have to know. I recently got a Macbook from work, partially because a Mac-fan coworker had been bugging me to switch from Windows to Mac. At some point I was showing something and typed a path straight into Finder, which blew his mind! He'd been using Macs for ages, and he just wasn't aware that Finder could do that. He learned something useful and new, but it's also quite telling that even some experienced Mac users aren't aware of the existence of such a vital feature.

>How it hides files and directories, doesn't show extensions, etc.

Finder does that too. I didn't list it because it can be configured, which is IMO a sensible default for standard users.

>But there's one thing it gets right: it shows you where you are, and you can edit that to go anywhere.

YES! Finder allows to display a breadcrumb at the bottom, but the simplest way to go anywhere is Cmd+Shift+G. It sucks as a shortcut, and even then it's inferior to Explorer.

If you right click on your pwd in Finder (top middle) you can see and jump to any point up to root.

> I hate how it prefers to display everything as icons instead of details.

It's actually the opposite. The view for each folder is dependent on what's inside, and if Explorer is unable to decide, it defaults to Details view.

And even then it's easy to change the defaults for each media type (documents, music, photos, etc.).

You can also drag and drop files/folders from Finder into a Terminal/iTerm window. That'll expand to the full path in the terminal.

For example, dragging the Documents folder into a terminal pane becomes:

  /Users/<username>/Documents

I haven't used this yet, but I do remember it as a really cool feature of my previous macbook.

But dragging a file doesn't seem to be so easy anymore; half the time, it wants to rename the file instead. No idea why. I also thought it used to be possible to drag a pdf or other document that I have open in an app, to an email and attach it that way. That doesn't seem to work anymore.

There are certainly issues with finder, but your complaints really just highlight that you are more experienced with the windows and not accustomed to Mac.

One of the problems addressing some of the issues you raised Is that you are not really explaining what you want to do. All you do is complain why Mac doesn’t work exactly like windows. Instead you should figure out what you want to do and explore and learn how that is accomplished on a Mac.

> and not accustomed to Mac

If I'm not accustomed to macOS after using it exclusively for more than 2 years, that shows where it sucks. There's plenty of things that I love on macOS: Spotlight, three-finger moves, even the weird fullscreen mode because it works so well with the pad. But the finder just sucks. That's it. It's not the end of the world and doesn't make macOS crappy. It's just a bad app.

@coldtea already pointed out some tips, but some others to note:

> - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned

Press CMD-J to open up the visual option, you can auto group and sort, snap to grid (unsorted), choose a default view.

> - No "parent folder"...

You can either press CMD-UpArrow or just right click on the title bar to see all the folders above it.

> It has less cool features (no tabs for instance) but is so much better to actually use.

Windows Explorer is also missing column view, which is a much faster way to navigate the file system completely with the keyboard. I'm often frustrated in Windows Explorer just trying to move around directories.

> Press CMD-J to open up the visual option, you can auto group and sort, snap to grid (unsorted), choose a default view.

I found this menu but missed the "default view" button, thanks!

It still boggles my mind that "non aligned on the grid" is the default though. It's a mess.

>It still boggles my mind that "non aligned on the grid" is the default though. It's a mess.

This infuriates me every time. This should be the default for the desktop (maybe) and absolutely no where else.

"Press CMD-J"

It's amazing how far Emacs has penetrated UI design.

FYI you can do cut in Mac. Do Cmd-C to copy and the Cmd-Option-V to cut-paste. For whatever reason, Windows has cut attached to selecting the file, but Mac has it attached to pasting the file.

To me attaching it to source file actually makes sense. In either scenario paste results in the same thing at the destination, it is only the behaviour of the source that changes.

(Sure, under the hood nothing different happens at the beginning, but semantically I think Windows makes sense here)

> For whatever reason, Windows has cut attached to selecting the file

That is the universal way copy/cut&paste work, everywhere outside the Mac Finder.

Everywhere being windows and linux file managers that copied windows?

Even on Mac OS cut works like Windows, except in Finder.

On text where it makes sense.

And "real life" cutting and pasting that the metaphor was based on (scrapbooking, ransom notes, etc...)

wow I did not realize mac had that. As an original mac user cutting a file always seemed like a terrible idea when I saw the option on windows. What if you cut it but then then get interrupted before pasting? File gone! The mac way seems safer.

> - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work)

CMD+C then CMD+ALT+V

I think of it not as copy-paste vs cut-paste but mark-copy vs mark-move.

It makes it consistent with drag and drop where alt is the modifier for copy vs move (the default depending on whether it's same disk vs another one)

There's no Alt key on a Mac.

Option/Alt

>> There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work

Cmd-opt-V will move the previously copied folder/file. I find this behavior superior to having to decide whether to cut/copy a file to select it. Instead, you choose the operation when it is time to actually move or copy. You can also copy a file to multiple locations in combination with a move.

Cmd-up moves to the parent folder.

You have lots of sort and aligning options that are accessible in keyboard shortcuts. Column browser doesn’t have a good windows equivalent for example. Alt or double clicking the bottom bar adjusts the width of all panes or auto adjusts the selected one. So I’m never in a situation where some file name is cut off even in very deep hierarchies.

So many people don't know about this. macOS' cut/paste behaviour is far superior for the reasons you state.

- There's no way to create an empty file Fair - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) If the intent is to paste/move then hold option cmd v(or in the context menu hold option) if you just want to cut it to remove it then that is a delete. Not necessarily better or worse imo just different

- There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned Need more info here, but I dont notice a problem with sorting by name type modified or any other column header just like windows explorer?

Can't make any excuses for Finder. I always reccomend Forklift for more advanced users. Dual-pane, midnight commander shortcuts, multi-rename, SFTP/S3 support, etc. https://binarynights.com

> There's no way to create an empty file

I use a nice little app called New File Menu to do that. It supports a bunch of defaults & whatever other templates you want to create. $2 on the Mac App Store. I’m just a happy user.

App Store link: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/new-file-menu/id1064959555?ls=...

Website: https://langui.net/new-file-menu/

> There's no way to create an empty file"

Depends on what you mean by easy. There's 2 (two) things you need to do to make this easier:

1. Enable New Terminal Tab at Folder service in Finder (goto Finder/Services/Services Preferences.../Files and Folders).

2. Make sure the Path Bar is visible in Finder (it's on the View Menu)

Now right-click the path in the Path Bar where you want to create the folder, select and click the New Terminal Tab at Folder and then touch whatever empty file you want created. Close the terminal window/tab.

Done!

I rarely need to create a new, empty file - but when I do this is how I do it!

I use tags all the time, so Im not sure why you find them useless. And what do you mean - no parent folder?

Also difficult/impossible to smart merge 2 folders, they always replace each other.

There is a console command on Mac OS called 'ditto' that accomplishes this.

https://www.unix.com/man-page/OSX/1/ditto/

>- There's no way to create an empty file

Create it for what? To use to launch the app that handles it? Just open the respective app and save an empty or unedited file.

>- There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work)

Copy as regularly (Cmd-C), and use Option-Cmd-V to move the file where you want to.

>- There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned

Not sure what you mean.

>- Tags are useless and just take up space for nothing

They're useful if you use them. Many people do use them. What exactly would you do with that "space" anyway? It's not like they take space in your apartment. It's a UI element which you can use or not use.

>- No "parent folder"...

Cmd+up arrow or Go -> Enclosing Folder.

Looks like all of the complains are basically "they're not where they was on Windows".

You successfully managed to confirm all of the parent's complaints by showing that they aren't achievable in Finder, or don't follow a consistent convention and have to be done some other way.

What's wrong with command-up to go to the enclosing folder? As the poster stated, you don't even need to use the keyboard shortcut, there's a menu item.

If I'm in a GUI app, I'm navigating with the mouse. Having to take my hand off the mouse to type Cmd+Up is not good UX for such a common command as "cd ..".

For GUI you right click on the folder name and go to parent or you double click on the parent folder name in the path at the bottom of the window.

I already gave one method to do it with the mouse (Go -> Enclosing folder). There are several other ways to navigate to the parent.

It might "confirm" the complaints but it also invalidates them. Fighting against the way something works isn't particularly valid, and is often ignorance (in the "don't know" way, not the obnoxious way). The guy helped with some knowledge.

This goes both ways. There have been whiny posts by Mac users who go to Windows (or from iOS to Android) and then gripe and complain about everything that isn't what they're accustomed to. It's just as silly.

All of those are achievable in Finder, the shortcuts I gave work precisely in Finder, and are also available as toolbar buttons and/or menu options.

>or don't follow a consistent convention and have to be done some other way.

The follow macOS conventions, not Windows conventions.

So basically "you're holding it wrong".

Or rtfm.

So basically "if you're expecting Windows conventions, you came to the wrong place".

> Looks like all of the complains are basically "they're not where they was on Windows".

Well... yeah kinda but not only. Windows does some things better, and it seems like a good idea to copy good UX paradigms wherever they come from. Also for some of these your answere is "why do you want to do this?" or "use some obscure keyboard magic". I want to because I want to. Sometimes I'm in a folder and want to create a specific file because it fits my current workflow. I don't always do it, but sometimes I need to.

>Copy as regularly (Cmd-C), and use Option-Cmd-V to move the file where you want to.

I don't care, why is it not Cmd-X? Why do they break the universal standard with this?

>I don't care, why is it not Cmd-X? Why do they break the universal standard with this?

Because there's no "universal standard". There's mac (which did UI/folders/etc before Windows), Windows, and there's X and modern Linux desktops which came late to the game and (especially traditional X) didn't have any consistent way to do this (or even oferred it).

Parent folder: command-click on the title bar of the window, get a menu of the entire hierarchy above the current folder.

(or as others have already said, Command-UpArrow to open the parent folder)

> There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work)

You don't need cut for files, you either want to duplicate the file or move it. For moving you copy it (cmd-c) and then move with cmd-opt-v.

Cut doesn't really make sense for files. With text you cut out the text into a clipboard. Where does the file go when you cut it? Nowhere. There is no place where you can see that you had already cut a file but it's waiting for you to make a mistake and move it somewhere by accident.

Mac has a better duplicate/move UX paradigm and more appropriate for files & folders.

How does one discover Cmd-Opt-V?

Even with a right click after copying a file, there's no "Move" option. Your explanation makes sense but doesn't really seem supported with Finder's UX since the "Move" terminology doesn't exist anywhere

Usually the option key uncovers more available options in context menus.

> How does one discover Cmd-Opt-V?

Keyboard shortcuts are not usually meant to be "discovered" (how do you discover ctrl+x?). You can learn and memorize them. Although, there is a common theme with the option/alt modifier on the mac.

Microsoft Word is an example of software which allows keyboard shortcut discovery pretty well [1]

[1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/keyboard-shortcuts...

> Press the Alt key to display the ribbon shortcuts

Seems pretty similar to apple, you have to know that pressing Alt shows additional information.

They are indeed meant to be discovered -- they are usually listed on menu items. You can hold down modifier keys like Option, Command, Ctrl and Shift to see how the menu item's text actually changes to reflect the action that will be taken if you press the respective key command. Very discoverable. I've never seen any other OS that does this (not that I look for it specifically). Also note when ellipses at the end of a menu item disappears when you are holding Option or whatever -- this means the action will be taken immediately, instead of asking the user to confirm (quick example is on "Empty Trash" in the Finder menu).

> Keyboard shortcuts are not usually meant to be "discovered" (how do you discover ctrl+x?).

Of course they are, don't be silly. Even in Finder, the "Édition" menu (I don't know how it's called in english) lists the keyboard shortcuts next to their names (copy, paste...). When you don't select anything, it even shows "Cut (Cmd+X)" grayed out! It just disappears when yous elect a file/folder

It’s another UX paradigm I have to remember (and usually don’t) instead of using the standard one which is second nature to me.

Nobody is forcing you to use macs. Doesn't make the mac any less intuitive if it doesn't follow what alternative operating systems are doing.

It does make it less intuitive if it is hiding common interactions behind keyboard shortcuts (cmd+up instead of an Up button) or if it is inconsistent with common paradigms (different shortcuts for copy vs cut + single shortcut to paste is universal outside finder, which uses an entirely different paradigm).

> It does make it less intuitive if it is hiding common interactions behind keyboard shortcuts (cmd+up instead of an Up button)

Navigating to the parent folder isn’t exclusive to a keyboard shortcut (⌘↑). It’s also accessible from the menu bar (Go → Enclosing Folder).

It's not hidden at all - it's actually a very easily-discoverable menu item under the "Go" menu.

In regards to consistency, though I know this isn't exactly what you meant, I just booted a virtual machine with System 6 (released in 1988) and Command-Up was the same key command to open the parent folder. :)

Actually some companies do. You want Linux since the software you are writing typically leverages a Linux environment, but the company doesn't want to support Linux so gives you a Mac machine instead. Its a poor substitute for the real thing IMO on a number of fronts at least for me. While it still works some of the time I would prefer a different environment and enjoy things like better Docker performance, avoid compile time differences between ARM and x64, odd differences in Terminal command behavior, etc, etc.

What on earth is an "empty" file?

And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V.

And yes, you can sort and align. Just go to the View menu.

And yes, there's a way to go the parent folder. SEVERAL:

- Go -> Enclosing Folder

- Cmd-Up

- Right click on the window title and choose any enclosing folder from the tree

- Show the Path Bar and double click any enclosing folder from the tree

I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac.

> I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac.

For the last 2 years I've used a Mac professionally and personally. I switched from Windows because lots of things are better. Finder is not one of them. And your answers should give you a hint why it sucks.

An empty file is a file that is empty, with the name and extension I chose on the moment I need it.

>And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V.

With the wrong keyboard shortcut, the correct one universally being Cmd-X.

>And yes, there's a way to go the parent folder. SEVERAL: > >- Go -> Enclosing Folder > >- Cmd-Up > >- Right click on the window title and choose any enclosing folder from the tree > >- Show the Path Bar and double click any enclosing folder from the tree

Several ways, none being the correct one. Nice. I know Apple likes hard to discover shortcuts but this is ridiculous.

> With the wrong keyboard shortcut, the correct one universally being Cmd-X.

I think there's no right or wrongs in keyboard shortcuts, but there are traditions. Both Windows and macOS has their distinct histories and traditions with inspirations from each other. I think it's equally wrong to point a finger to a Windows machine and shout "Why you don't have a command key, you inferior OS-Wannabe?"

Some machines work different from each other. Sun and other Unixen had super, hyper and meta layers on their keyboards with hundreds or more shortcuts. They weren't wrong either, just different, and IMHO cool.

> Several ways, none being the correct one...

Again, if we're going to throw stones, I can name a lot of shortcomings in Windows from file names to other small/backward stuff, but it'd be equally wrong. They are just different systems and have different choices.

> I know Apple likes hard to discover shortcuts but this is ridiculous.

Just open the help menu of an app and write to command you want to find. It'll show it on the menu. Pressing enter will directly run that action.

>I think it's equally wrong to point a finger to a Windows machine and shout "Why you don't have a command key"

Well actually I think the control/option/command paradigm makes more sense than ctrl/alt/super, so yeah, I'd love this being copied by Microsoft. It's harder than just supporting Cmd-X in the Finder though. Adding Cmd-X to Finder is just a net gain, it doesn't even require deprecating or breaking anything. It just brings a standard to an app that should support it.

> With the wrong keyboard shortcut, the correct one universally being Cmd-X.

I think no matter what you do here, you have a problem. When you press ctrl-x on a file in Windows explorer; you're not really cutting it; nothing happens til you paste! (Unlike using cut anywhere else).

Both Windows and MacOS end up with a bit of a strained metaphor here; I don't think it's at all obvious which way is _correct_.

>I don't think it's at all obvious which way is _correct_.

From a UX perspective the answer is pretty clear. Copy/Cut/Paste is the winning paradigm, which empirically makes it the correct way.

But, again, this isn't really cut and paste at all. It's more like "note position, and _then_ atomically cut and paste". Cutting and pasting files in Windows doesn't work at all like cutting and pasting anything else.

Someone who had never used Windows might reasonably expect, on finding 'cutting' a file did something, that if they never pasted the file would just be deleted, because that's how cut and past normally works.

In fact, I have used Windows since 3.11, and until reading your comment I thought that cutting without pasting would delete the file!

That's not true at all! The moment you cut a file on windows it is marked as hidden, which makes it disappear with default settings. It's treu that unless you paste it it will remain there in practice, but the UX gets it right.

Furthermore, you can cut once and paste to several places, with predictable semantics identical to every other implementation of cut+paste (though performance of the first paste will be different from subsequent ones).

Edit: I was entirely wrong about the second part, which does undermine my point considerably.

You were wrong about the 1st part too. Cut files don't change attributes and don't disappear.

At least Explorer marks them as hidden when you cut them, I didn't check the file attributes.

Cmd-X would be inconsistent with every other move/copy action on the Mac. Option is the modifier that switches between them.

And what is the "correct" way to go up a folder? What would be easier or more discoverable than Go -> Enclosing Folder?

A button? Even Unix considers that accessing the parent dir is a fundamental operation that deserves a dedicated file in the API (..) .

File in the API?

Well, .. is not exactly a file, but it's not exactly an API either, right?

Generally speaking, macOS uses option or shift to modify existing commands. Hence cmd-c / cmd-(opt)-v. The paradigm is Copy -> Move or Duplicate.

In Windows, it's Copy or Cut -> Paste. I don't mind this change from Windows. Actually, I slightly prefer the Mac version, because I can change my mind on what operation I want to do. Windows front loads the choice, and I have to do it again if I decide I don't want to copy or cut anymore.

As for folder nav/manipulation, I find Finder to make much greater sense, whereas Explorer was just, this makes sense because it's always been this way (don't get me wrong, Finder has its shortcomings in other areas, although File Preview [space bar] is pretty awesome).

Finder: Generally speaking, arrows do everything.

* Movement within folder: up/down arrow keys

* Move out or into a directory / into a file or app AKA open it: cmd up/down

* Expand/contract a folder: left/right arrow keys

* Rename a file/folder: Enter

Explorer:

* Movement within a folder: up/down arrow keys

* Move into a directory / open a file: Enter

* Move out of a directory: alt up

* Expand/contract a folder: left/right

* Rename a file / folder: F2

> In Windows, it's Copy or Cut -> Paste. I don't mind this change from Windows. Actually, I slightly prefer the Mac version, because I can change my mind on what operation I want to do. Windows front loads the choice, and I have to do it again if I decide I don't want to copy or cut anymore.

That's not just Windows, it is the way the copy/paste model works absolutely everywhere outside Mac's Finder. And there is a clear reason why it makes sense, and why the Finder way is just bad UX: the decision about what happens in location X should always be done when you are in location X.

So, if you navigate into a folder and select a file that you want somewhere else, you are currently in the best position to decide whether you want the file to stay here as well (copy) or no (cut). Then, you can go somewhere else and just add the file in that location (paste). Furthermore, on Windows you can paste the file to several places, with predictable semantics: the file will be copied to each of those places (though performance of this operation may be suprising).

I can't even begin to imagine on Mac if you copy a file the Cmd+opt+v it to multiple places. Does it move it around, deleting it from the previous place where you pressed cmd-opt-v???

Edit: I was entirely wrong about the part about copying to multiple places, which does undermine my point considerably.

> That's not just Windows, it is the way the copy/paste model works absolutely everywhere outside Mac's Finder. And there is a clear reason why it makes sense, and why the Finder way is just bad UX: the decision about what happens in location X should always be done when you are in location X.

Hmm, the first part isn't convincing. To me that sounds like "everyone else is doing it" and not much different than arguing between left side vs right side driving, when there could be a third way, like teleportation. Not saying Finder is quite that much of a shift, but Finder's method does have semantical differences, and not just "hey we're cmd+n/m for cut/copy".

As for the second part, I think that's an intriguing argument, but "bad UX" seems like a stretch. If it were truly always decided in location X, would you have to return to location X to cancel your copy/cut? No, because that would be far too strict. It also depends on what your mental model is of what has been decided at location X.

On macOS: I have decided I want to manipulate the data in this file at location X. I can decide to copy or move it later at location Y.

On Windows: I have decided I want to cut XOR copy this file at location X. I can decide location Y later.

I personally like the ability to chain my decisions after. Based on your edit, I guess you've already discovered, but yes on macOS, you can issue a copy command once, then duplicate it and/or move it as many times as you want, to multiple places, even if you choose a move command first. Only location X's copy is altered if doing a move.

I'm not even sure if that would be possible on Windows without going back and forth between location X and Y to switch between copy and cut (my wintel machine is down at the moment).

> * Move out or into a directory / into a file or app AKA open it: cmd up/down

3 years of using a Mac now, I would never have figured this out on my own.

IMHO stupid to put the most common operation on a file behind a meta key.

The ratio of how often I rename a file (rarely) vs use a file (often) doesn't come out in favor of this choice.

That said I realize the decision was probably made long long ago and now Apple is just stuck with it.

Still though.

Maybe after another few years I'll figure out the hot key to change between the side pane and the main file list.

(yes I could just look it up, but I do most of my work in terminal and I try to avoid Finder as much as I can, I really dislike using it)

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