Switching from Mailchimp to open-source Mailtrain and AWS SES
carlchenet.com
carlchenet.com
Why would I go though all this for 500 euro a year.
Why doesn't OP deploy this as a service for 15$ a month ?
https://techstartups.com/2020/10/30/forget-big-tech-censorsh...
I have been running mail servers for 20+ years, sending volumes that would have made me multiple times bancrupt if I was doing it via Mailchimp or SES.
Also, 20 years ago running your email server was way easier than now
The dev monitoring the API health kept track of system health by looking at the number of unread messages in his inbox. If the number of unread messages went up by < 100,000 in a day, the API was doing fine. If there were a couple million new messages, it means we were having problems.
So... I can definitely see how this is plausible, if not uh, "best practice".
A newsletter is so different because merely this blogpost could have generated enough money/attention to warrant doing it, but there's an endless amount of reasoning that can be done to warrant both choices.
Most simply, I think the typical calculation is if there were 40 working hours per week (8 hours, Mon - Fri) then there are 2080 working hours per year, which is ~21.63 Euro (per hour, assuming 45k EUR) just in salary - other commenters pointed out an employer would have other costs, but lets try and keep it simple as was suggested.
But beyond simple, you don't work on public holidays and Europe tends to have 20-25 vacation days per year as well. That probably adds up to 35 days (280 hours) in France. Therefore the number of hours actually 'at work' is only going to be 1800 a year, so 45k EUR comes to 25EUR per hour.
I imagine this might work on AWS Free Tier but while SES supports ~62k emails per month as 'Always Free', any EC2 instance or network bandwidth is probably billable here. There's probably up to 100EUR a year in cost associated here?
So you have 400EUR of money Mailchimp charged for the service and will never be "apples to apples" because now you're responsible for initial setup and ongoing maintenance. Definitely seems simple in the blog post, but unmentioned was how you backup all the configuration and state, how do you monitor it, most of the features of Mailtrain (e.g. Click Stats) rely on the NodeJS application being operational so is this actually a load balancer, two instances, and the extra complexity of database replication, et al? It is also now on you to make sure it stays patched, isn't compromised, etc.
I imagine there are different deliverability promises with Mailchimp vs. Amazon SES and you might now have to do more managing of that through AWS interfaces?
All of the above needs to fit into ~16 hours a year if we're going to draw this comparison against what you'd make as a salaried engineer. All of the above is time that could have been spent on extra content for the newsletter, or improved content for it, other than this post obviously, or on audience building, on other professional development, or just about anything else.
I think the ROI of writing the article and making everyone debate this on the internet was pretty high, but the title feels like clickbait. This is a straight trade for saving a little money vs. a semi-significant personal time investment.
500€ at 17.40€ an hour is 28.7 hours, 22.9 if we're taking your 400€ (I'll believe you on that, I don't know much about AWS pricing). I think that may be reasonable to take care of it. There's also a big problem: you can't directly transform hours of your life into money. If the author is not paid by the hour because he's a cadre, he had to work 218 days in the year, and that's it, working more hours won't make him directly earn more (more info here https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F19261?...). Finding freelance work to expand those 10 to 30 hours (to be very large) isn't going to be easy too. As an aside, if we take 218 days for our calculations, that comes up to ~20€ an hour if they work 8 hours days, and ~23€ an hour if they work 7 hours days.
I do agree that database replication seems like a big issue, and if that's the case maybe switching to RDS could be a good idea.
Anyway, I think the article is relatively good at demonstrating the two extremes, Mailchimp vs everything by hand. Everyone is free to take of that what they find interesting, even if it's "I'd rather pay for Mailchimp".
> I think the ROI of writing the article and making everyone debate this on the internet was pretty high, but the title feels like clickbait. This is a straight trade for saving a little money vs. a semi-significant personal time investment.
I do think that it should be "How I" instead of "How to", but on the other hand "save up x/year" already informs you that the author is trading their time for money. I don't think it's clickbait just because it wouldn't apply to your or other peoples situations. Especially if 500€ is a little money for you, you're not really the target of the article.
Regardless, it's not simply about time.
It did end with a judgement that it was in breach but the court didn't fine the company because they barely used Mailchimp and they stopped using it before it got to trial.
I think at minimum "hours" per month seems more realistic, no?
I've been running Sendy for a while on my own host. I spend about 30 minutes a year on maintenance time to occasionally upgrade versions. Each upgrade takes about 10 minutes and I tend do it every few months.
It's similar to Mailtrain in that it uses your Amazon SES account to send the mail, but it's a managed SaaS so you don't have to worry about keeping your server patched or accidentally wiping out your subscriber list.
I've been migrating all my lists out of MailChimp and into EmailOctopus over the past six months, and I've been happy with the service. One nice perk is that you can disable view and click tracking, giving back some privacy to your subscribers. Their API is also the nicest of any providers I looked at.
If you don’t have expert knowledge in the required tools/services, it will take much longer than 5 hours to set up the self-maintained solution. If you are unlucky “you may need the help of a professional sysadmin.” … Again, saving nothing.
Only if someone will pay you for those 5 hours. Otherwise may as well say they’re worth 37 starfish or 92 leprechauns.
I’m trying as hard as I can.
It's not, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27259000.
> You also have to maintain/update the system, maybe spend time teaching other people.
I think it's just one person running a newletter, so I don't think teaching other people is a thing here.
And customer service that denies their own problems.
I started using Sendy with SES a few years ago and it was much easier to setup compared to this blog post.
Went from $120 / mo to pennies, + the initial cost of Sendy.
If you're a developer, it's worth it.
Initial price is much higher than Sendy, but Mailchimp recently also added a drip campaigns feature.
I always had the impression that using services like Mailchimp make that much less likely than doing it DIY on top of a more commodity transport like SES. I.e. they stay on top of and evolve with best practices over time so you don't have to.
Is that in any way accurate?
We started having this recently when sending quotations to customers. We ended up sending attached PDFs instead,so Apple Mail won't complain anymore. It can be either content or how the domain is setup,still not sure to this day.
For the most part, yes.
It's all about delivering as much information as possible to aid the receiver with the spam detection process. The goal is to reduce false positives/negatives. The beauty of this is of course that if you are in fact sending spam, this will work against you. Mailchimp does this very well, they actually have people working for them with 'email deliverability expert' as their job title.
The problem is that rolling a simple email sending solution is trivial to set up, but hard to get right. It takes surprisingly significant engineering resources to build a solution that complies with all the relevant RFCs, scales nicely and follows new developments. Resources that are probably much better spend elsewhere.
My job is helping customers optimise their email infrastructure [0], I have analysed hundreds of domains, and my observation is that the vast majority of home-grown email solutions lack even the basic provisions for deliverability.
My advice: don't roll your own email solution, unless you can afford full-time engineers to do so. There certainly is a tipping point (as always) where building your own solution is more cost effective as a SaaS solution, but that is certainly not at 500€/Year.
[0] Disclaimer: I'm the founder of Mailhardener
While email delivery is complex, and reputation matters, for smaller apps and well established mailing lists, self setup works perfectly fine.
As someone who has sent billions of emails I can tell you the following.
1. SES is shit. 2. Value of mailchimp is not in its interface. It is in mail deliverability.
Use at least sendgrid.
I would not consider SES "shit" because it does not baby-sit you throughout the setup process. The documentation was solid, and I had a lot of freedom to customize a solution specific to my use case. Overall working SES has been an enjoyable experience.
But maybe my mind will change 1 billion emails later haha we'll see.
Don't get me wrong, it might be perfectly fine choice for smaller projects but it is not a solution you would rely for scale. You have to build your own mailservers with warmed up IPs.
I did a quick Mautic setup on a DO droplet a while back. It felt a little like beta software, a lot of careful steps to get things working, some things didn't work, updates and some actions on a clean install gave me PHP errors, Amazon SES API wasn't built yet so sent super slow via SMTP only, etc. And it leaned way harder into marketing automation as I should've expected from the name (JS on page to track users then associate them if/when they sign up later). This was at least a year ago and they've had a major release since so might have fixed some of these but I'm still trying to save money for a small business who can't afford $200/mo for sporadic newsletters and welcome series with free stuff.
If you're a hacker trying to launch a business, building your own email service to save $50/month is a ridiculous distraction from getting to profitability.
One-to-many email solutions are crazy: it's either some crap or super expensive marketing software. We all wish there was something a bit better.
It could also be used for creating and managing a newsletter, but doing so is undocumented as of writing.
I felt like SES is more careful in vetting their customers to prevent shared IPs being polluted.
The real advantage is to have control over your own infrastructure and ensure the privacy of your reader base.
The drawback is having to monitor blocklists and the reputation of your server IP address.
Which sound like big drawbacks for anything reasonably serious. Maybe if you're doing this at scale for clients but, then, you're potentially exposed to clients who can cause problems that affect other clients.
People who believe this is a viable method to reach the inboxes of thousands of gmail users have never tried.
Real Soon Now(TM), the tech community needs to start a serious campaign to shame and isolate email providers that do not reliably deliver legitimate emails, regardless of how high profile they are. It probably needs meaningful government/regulator backing to get anywhere. The odd false positive on spam/malware filtering is understandable, it's not a perfect science, but the reality today is that a lot of these services simply don't work properly and the unreliability is probably causing some degree of damage to huge numbers of people and businesses. Email is far too important for far too many things to let the reliability continue to degrade according to the arbitrary whims of a few large mail services and to permit oligopoly effects to lock new or small-time providers out of the system almost entirely.
I have had customers contact my business to ask for help with something, and we send them a quick reply answering their question, and then the next day we get a frustrated follow-up asking why we are ignoring them, and this continues for another round or two until they give up on buying something from us or cancel a subscription.
I have had friends send me a reply a month after a big party saying they're sorry they didn't make it but they only just found the invitation and the follow-up I sent them in their junk folder.
Those sorts of cases are annoying and seem to happen all the time these days, but imagine if a missing email was something really important from your doctor or your kid's school.
You're free to try to educate users now, if you like, but most people receive emails only from a small group of hosting companies.
The actual people being negatively affected have chosen an acceptable level of spam false positives.
Unless the user is actively expecting to receive an important mail around a certain time and therefore likely to notice its absence, the failures are either quiet (messages dropped in junk automatically that may or may not be noticed by the recipient later) or totally silent (as with ISPs that drop mail they deem inappropriate entirely, without notifying either party).
Even if someone is expecting a mail, as the experience with business customers I mentioned demonstrates annoyingly often, the failure to receive that email may be assumed to be the fault of the expected sender, not the recipient's own mail service.
You can use a VPS for web projects. For e-mail you'd want a dedicated server with a separate IP that is going to cost you €40/month. Yes it may take 1h to set up, but gaining reputation takes time - you definitely won't be able to reach all recipients within one hour of purchasing the server.
I sent emails from a VPS for years without issues. I stopped purely because Fastmail had better software and cheaper storage.
From experience I can confirm the reputation build-up requirement though. And all that reputation can get ruined by a single blacklisting - even if you manage to get the server de-listed later the damage is done.
e.g. email security software driven opens and clicks are registered as human by CC's reporting tools (GUI and API).
The closest thing I think exists would be Sendy, but it's a closed source paid app.
I have no affiliation with them but I did speak to the guy who runs Buttondown on my podcast. He went over how it's built and deployed at: https://runninginproduction.com/podcast/70-buttondown-lets-y...
He has clients with over 100k+ people on their list and has put in a lot of thought and leg work to ensure good deliverability rates. It's also been running for ~5 years.