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>The USA, in my opinion, should show leadership and step in to make it clear that such affront against democracy

The US is rarely interested in affronts against democracy unless there's a geopolitical advantage to be had by leveraging it.

From a practical standpoint, US interventions almost always make things worse for the people who live there, and in a lot of cases less democratic.

The US only intervenes if a rich American has a profit motive that benefits them. Standing up for the Bosnians was the last rare instance where this wasn't the case. Selling bombs to both sides to maintain perpetual conflict is the usual favorite play.

The US intervenes in plenty of places where there is no profit motive outside of the standard military industrial complex. I think, for example, it's hard to argue that there was a profit motive in somalia, or bombing that pharmaceuticals factory in the sudan, going back further and getting out of africa, Grenada, e.g. Not that these interventions weren't stupid for other reasons.

Not sure about Sudan but Somalia is a key shipping chokepoint. There very much is a profit motive there.

Then why did piracy spike after the US intervention?

I didn't say it was a success.

The US is no stranger to strategic military intervention that costs lives and money and achieves nothing very substantial - from Vietnam to Iraq to Afghanistan.

Speaking of which - what was the profit motive in Vietnam? There was definitely geopolitical motive, but I can't imagine there was a "rich American" person or corporation calling the shots for themselves in indochina

What are you talking about, the military industrial complex made an insane amounts of money from that war.

> The US intervenes in plenty of places where there is no profit motive outside of the standard military industrial complex.

It was the cold war. I'm pretty sure the MIC could have justified so much spending in other ways besides vietnam, but we are venturing into counterfactual territory.

"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose" - Captain Picard

Thats not what happened. There was no piracy problem. Then the US toppled the government. Then there was a piracy problem. The US didnt intervene to stop a problem that didnt exist. I was responding to the claim that destabilizing the Somali government in 1993 was profitable to wealth Americans because shipping lanes are near Somalia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_off_the_coast_of_Soma...

>After the collapse of the Somali government and the dispersal of the Somali Navy, ... groups, using small boats, would sometimes hold vessels and crew for ransom. This grew into a lucrative trade, with large ransom payments. The pirates then began hijacking commercial vessels

Thanks for the insight, I really wasn't aware of the extent of their actions.

The quote I posted is a bit cryptic by itself. What I meant by it was that perhaps the US had plans that would lead to greater benefits for them in the region, but these plans backfired by inadvertently creating the Somali piracy problem.

They did everything right with regards to whatever they were hoping to achieve, but they still failed and then pirates happened.

Geographically. Somaliland might be, but that's a de facto independent region only marginally connected to Mogadishu, where the intervention was.

Right, US stood up for Bosnians for the goodness of their hearts, not to weaken Serbs, historically Russian allies, and to signal Turkey and middle eastern oil holders "we support your foothold in Europe".

Probably, but it was also the right thing to do.

And it was also clear nobody in Europe cared or was going to do anything, even if it was also in their craven interest.

Probably didn't align with their August vacation schedule plans or something.

They were a little more hesitant to engage in airstrikes because they knew that Serbia would step up the ethnic cleansing if they did.

& they did.

The US was more concerned with there being instability in Europe than any overriding moral concerns.

300,000 of Serbs forced out of Croatia in period from 1991 to 1995. Where were US bombs to prevent that particular ethnic cleansing?

US bombs landed on Croatian Serbs on multiple occasions thus enabling ethnic cleansing. But no biggie, what's small ethnic cleansing between NATO friends?

> and in a lot of cases less democratic

Almost all. I can really think of two counterexamples, Japan and Korea (and it took a very long time ~30 years? for korea to figure itself out). Maybe Jugoslavia can be put into that bin too, though it's not clear if the US intervention hurt or helped.

you can add Germany to the list, albeit France and UK also had a say there

Setting up the Weimar Republic after WW1 didn't go so well, then the aftermath of WW2 there were decades of east+west Germany. I don't see that as a positive example of a foreign power setting up a government.

The USA side was much better than the USSR side...

The Weimar Republic wasn't set up by the Entente and not going to war with the Soviet Union to liberate East Germany was, to put it mildly, a reasonable decision.

I have to preface this with a very emphatic the ends absolutely do not justify the means, but, defying ill repute and near-unanimous pessimism, Iraq seems to have been able to slowly stitch its parliamentary system back together and respond to democratic pressures (protests, elections) without resorting to fraud and violence. It's too early to celebrate, but things look a lot better than they did ten years ago.

> The US is rarely interested in affronts against democracy

A Mig fighter jet was dispatched to shepherd the airliner. This represents a threat to anyone on a flight through or maybe even near Belarus's airspace.

It is clear a fighter could not do anything about any bomb on an aircraft.

It was there to force the pilot. Last I checked, a pilot has final authority on a plane's heading and destination, not air traffic control.

Kuwait 1990 Haiti 1994 Bosnia and Herzegovina 1995 Kosovo 1999 Colombia 2000+ Afghanistan 2001 Libya 2011 Iraq 2014

There have been a lot of catastrophic $&@$ ups and terrible ideas, but it's selective history to claim there have been no positive outcomes for the people who live there.

Small nitpick, the country is Colombia, the university is Columbia.

Thanks! Not enough coffee. Corrected!

Iraq? A million people died as a result of the Iraqi intervention.

2014 was preventing the Iraqi government collapse to ISIL

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Iraq_(2013%E2%80%9320...

IMHO, it seems like most Iraqis are better off living under a government than IS, but your opinion may differ.

ISIL existed/exists directly due to America’s waging of war on Iraq. It’s disingenuous to list that there.

Just because a previous intervention was ill advised does not mean a later one was; quite the opposite; you could even consider it taking responsibility for damage caused.

It's clearly not disingenuous to include the 2014 intervention in the list of the more reasonable ones.

I mean, if you present it as somehow excusing the earlier mistake; that'd be a different issue.

ISIS would never have been able to gain even a fraction of a foothold in the pre-Iraq war government, for all its ills.

You've got this exactly backwards. The invasion of Iraq was a contingent factor in the rise of ISIL. In particular Bremer's decision to disband the Iraqi regular army was incredibly stupid. The bulk of the regular army, not the republican guard, acted more as a nation wide police force than a military proper. Disbanding them meant there were now 100,000's of thousands of young men with basic military training with no more income to provide to their family. That became the recruiting pool for both the insurgency and ISIL.

Yes. And in 2014, what would you have proposed to do about decisions made in 2003?

I see no reason to limit discussion of the consequence of what we did in Iraq to 2014, but even then, it's not nearly as positive as what you're claiming. Iraq post 2014 is now effectively a client state of Iran, something that makes life much more dangerous for broad swaths of ordinary Iraqi citizens, as well as the region in general.

I don't think it's reasonable to argue your intervention in my house fire was successful because you used your bulldozer to clean up the rubble, if you were the arsonist that set fire to it in the first place.

If you'd like a particularly poignant "fly on the wall" style look into how ordinary Iraqi people saw the invasion in 2003, and their predictions for the future, check out Iraq in Fragments. Many of their predictions have come true in the years since. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiu8cXhjpX4

So, what do you think the international community should have done in 2014? Or are you advocating for non-intervention in what was unfolding at that point?

Putin's ambitions seem like a geopolitical risk. Maybe on both sides; it seems Autocrats right now like a good 'buffer' - e.g. North Korea. Plus a new forming 'axis' vs 'democracy' power struggle

Hard to argue with the second when looking at the past 2 decades, but looking broader in the past century I think there are many more arguments the other way. Most of Europe for one.

> The US is rarely interested in affronts against democracy unless there's a geopolitical advantage to be had by leveraging it.

Who are the countries who are willing to intercede militarily purely to liberate a country?

> From a practical standpoint, US interventions almost always make things worse for the people who live there, and in a lot of cases less democratic.

I think this is a fair criticism—intercession is hard—but the question isn’t whether things are better or worse than they were, but rather whether they were better or worse than they would have been under Soviet influence. And you can analyze this as “whether or not a specific country is better or worse” as well as “whether or not the world is better or worse for the diminished soviet influence that would have been afforded by that country falling under Soviet influence”.

pretty sure the issues that belarus has is more to do with its dictator lukashenko then "soviet influence": https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...

Most likely, yes. But consider none of this would be happening without Russian backing.

Soviet influence it is. Lukasenko was a party boss in USSR

Putin was KGB mafia boy.

Kravcuk, and Kucma were party bosses of state enterprises.

Aliyevs were KGB men

Shevardnaze was USSR's foreign minister

The whole of Central Asia is basically ruled by exactly the same Moscow's satraps since late eighties, with exception of wild tempered Kyrgyzstan.

Mongolia, "the 16th republic," also had communist comeback, only ended by an extreme, Norko style economic collapse.

The only country of ex-USSR where CPSU did not recapture the power outside of Baltics was Armenia, but only thanks to power going to their nazis. A medicine worse than the poison.

> The only country of ex-USSR where CPSU did not recapture the power outside of Baltics was Armenia

And Georgia

It was, Shevardnadze ruled for 8 years.

Which ended in 2003. I'd argue that CPSU, since 1991, has had much less internal influence in Georgia than Armenia, which is still heavily Russian-aligned. Georgia is trying to join NATO...

in Afghanistan for how long? now Taliban control more territory then they did before US came in...

Libya? way way worse, i mean its a place you can buy slaves in open markets now after US intervention...

list is huge, some places they would take out democracy to put in puppet dictatorships all in the interest of the US, they will work with Saudi Arabia and in last 5 years starve 80,000 kids to death in Yemen under 5 years.

i can only list a few countries that US intervention ended actually helping both the US and the country.

so yes USA will claim to come in to give "democracy" or what ever humanitarian excuse but its never for those reasons, its always for the interest of US and US corporations, i mean didn't the US take a country just because corporations wanted it for growing Bananas? and still to this day they are messing with them ?

It’s like you didn’t even read my post...

I read it. As far as I could tell you were saying that intervention was sometimes worthwhile because the Soviets are evil?

I'm not sure I got it either. As an argument for interventionism it was poor.

I don't know how you got any of that from my comment. I'm quite explicitly not arguing in favor of interventionism, nor am I arguing that Soviets were evil. I'm making a metaargument that criticisms of US interventionism must compare US interventionism with Soviet interventionism; it's insufficient to say that US interventionism is worse than no interventionism because the latter wasn't a plausible option. So yeah, it's a shitty argument for interventionism because it's not an argument for interventionism. ;)

The US is not the world police. Maybe should start with their ally Saudi Arabia first to dispel any doubts, it was not about democracy. Raif Badawi is still imprisoned.

Maybe the US is world american-style police? :D

Anything involving the Saudis is in fact an adjustment of the world economic petro-dollar system.

The US and Saudis both have a very large gun to each other's heads... so that's a pretty constrained situation.

It will be curious to see what happens in the next 10+ years as oil-as-energy demand begins to wane.

>The US and Saudis both have a very large gun to each other's heads

Thats just not true. Saudi family rule over Arabia is predicated on US support. If all SA oil production stopped it would not topple the US government. If the US decided to back a political opposition like it did in Syria the Saudi regime would implode in days.

Saud family have a lot in the bank, so they could hire someone else if USA politics got rid of their lobbyists who control much of Congress. Are they so weak that they would simply collapse without USA support? I would think they could just hire e.g. some ex-Pakistani military to keep the populace cowed.

Or do you mean to say that USA could easily replace the regime with a different, more-favored one? How did that work in Syria? We're withdrawing from Afghanistan now, and at this time Taliban control more territory than they held in 2001. USA military is a bit of a paper tiger, when it comes to achieving results via military action.

Go watch "Team America, World Police", the depiction (though satirical) has some poignant truth to it.

It is not normal to interfere in the affairs of other sovereign nations unless one of the affected nations requests help. And even then the other nations have a lot of additional considerations beyond doing anything but making a sternly worded speech. Most of the time when the USA inserts itself into other affairs people complain about the USA being a bully and sticking its nose where it doesn’t belong. The EU needs to craft a strong response to this by itself or lose a lot of credibility on the world stage.

Edit: just to clarify, some of the USA’s other considerations would be the risk of getting called out for being a hypocrite- it has done a few shady extraditions in the past.

So true. Both Greece and Lithuania are EU members. Part of the EU mission is to provide freedom & security for the members. So here we are, do something.

Ireland is also involved in this. All three entities are members of the eu, Greece and Lithuania are in NATO and Ireland is a “partner” of NATO.

I suspect the U.S. is already responsible for making this behaviour more common. Can certainly try to make up for it, but I think great damage has been done.

You dont make up for being a brutal expansionist empire by being a "kinder gentler" expansionist empire. Until there is regime change in the US nothing it does will be good for anyone but its own ruling class.

Can you imagine the pressure he is under, knowing full well that Russia stands ready to take the entire country if the possibility of a Pro Europe/Pro Western Party was elected. You don't have to look back too far to see what lies on the horizon, Ukraine was a perfect example of that. Unfortunately Europe (France and Germany mainly)/West (USA) has shown that they are more interested in maintaining a business relationship with Russia than defended against their aggression. They won't even support none aggression treaties they were all a party to.

Is Lukashenko a dictator, for sure, but he is in an impossible situation. The Russians are making sure of that and as long as Western Governments show an indifference to the sovereignty of countries like Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, etc there is no way forward.

He is in impossible situation not because of Russia, but because of corrupt and violent regime he created. Majority of population in Belarus is pro-Russian, so the alliance between countries would persist after the transition of power (see Armenia, Kyrgyzstan for recent examples of how this works). His personal risks are loss of all assets and the fact that the new government will likely demand his extradition from Russia for criminal investigation. Probably the only reason why Lukashenko is still there is that Russia will not revoke its support until there are signs that opposition wins.

> The USA, in my opinion, should show leadership and step in to make it clear that such affront against democracy on a neighbour of its closest allies

The USA showed leadership when it contrived a situation where the president of Bolivia's plane was made to land in Austria, to search for someone who leaked to journalists that the US government was monitoring virtually all domestic phone calls, texts, Internet connections etc.

Leadership in an affront against democracy, as you put it.

They/we could start by removing the fisa courts.

“great powers don't care enough to defend democratic rights anywhere outside their own borders”

Could they not draw the same conclusion from our very pro trade friendly policies toward for example China?

It's sad that USA has been seen as the international beacon for freedom and the defender of democracy for so many international struggles but USA has abdicated this role after it was abused by greed and the CIA so many times. Now isolationist voices have gained power domestically. We could have been the super heroes for freedom and democracy that the world needed. Being viewed that way was a big part of our super power's soft power and our loss of it is a big win for China and Russia.

Soft power and American exceptionalism; like apple pie with ice cream, always somehow greater than the sum of the parts. The reality is that our soft power is moderated (mediated?) by the narratives exported by the couple of big media companies that dominate our airwaves (and thoughts.) These narratives have intentionally not, worked to undermine American soft power while promoting the soft power of international organizations like the WHO. Any discussion of soft power that omits the media is hopelessly incomplete. The soft power is being reallocated by our elites, because it was their power to begin with.

We created the WHO and the UN out of an idealism and optimism that derived from an honest belief after WWII that we were the good guys that were going to use our power to spread freedom and democracy. That idealism is what gave us the power. That's why so many popular struggles around the world have used the statue of liberty as a symbol for the society they want to create.

The USA did exactly this themselves. they forced landed Bolivia's presidential airplane in Austria thinking Snowden is on board. Also, the USA is hunting down the likes of Snowden and Assange. So Belarus is following the lead

> Poland and Hungary (not to mention Turkey a bit further away) are already leaning dangerously close to the kinds of abuse of power only seen in dictatorships

Please show me examples in Poland or Hungary of opposition voices being silenced or arrested.

The worst that has happened is withdrawing government financing or grants to entities that aren’t pro government. That’s not exactly a dictatorship.

In Hungary almost all the online press is anti government. No one gets arrested. Their are 5 opposition parties now uniting against government, no one is silenced.

Yes the state TV is pro government. But this is not unique to Poland or Hungary. In fact I’d argue the pinnacle of state TV, the BBC is very much leaning to one side of the political isle right now too.

> Please show me examples in Poland or Hungary of opposition voices being silenced or arrested.

Some examples for Poland that I'm aware of:

- August 2020 mass arrest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2020_LGBT_protests_in_P...

- Poland’s constitutional court not a “tribunal established by law”, rules ECHR: https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/05/07/polands-constitutiona...

Sure, the situation seems not as bad as in Belarus, but still it looks bad.

really?

Népszabadság, the biggest printed newspaper was bought and closed by government/its allies.

origo.hu and index.hu, the biggest Hungarian online portals was also bought, and converted to progovernment outlets.