Commander X16

David "The 8-Bit Guy" Murray, the initiator of the Commander X16, has a blog post about why he wasn't satisfied with the C256 Foenix: http://www.the8bitguy.com/3543/my-dream-computer-part-2/

> Stefany and I disagree over some of the design at the moment. For example she has an integrated floppy drive, MIDI ports, SID chips, and a whole host of other things that I don’t feel are necessary and will inflate the cost of the computer.

> Even if she agreed to all of my design changes, it would still be a computer that would be $80 or more for somebody to buy, well above the original price point I was hoping to target.

> https://c256foenix.com/ Based on 65c816, affordable, powerful and - most important - already available and well tested.

I went to the link:

Available: it's all sold out. Admittedly, it exists more than the project of this post, which was announced 2 years ago and still has to deliver.

Affordable: disputable, this is priced $220/$260 for a bare board (no power supply, no case) so you can find cheaper Amiga/ST FPGA boards; but it is not ridiculously expensive either and some of those Amiga/ST boards are unavailable too.

I thought the Foenix was canceled. We had a discussion about it the last time the Commander X16 came up: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23801266

> Speaking of "modern retro computing" there is already a player in the town: C256 Foenix

Is there any community site where I can download software for this machine? It is a very good feature of the other retro projects that there are centralized websites where can be distributed and downloaded software. For ZX Spectrum Next[1], for Commander X16[2] and for Mega65[3].

[1] https://www.specnext.com/software-directory/

[2] https://www.commanderx16.com/forum/index.php?/files/

[3] https://files.mega65.org/html/main.php

This sounds like a much better spec. Using the 65c816 keeps the 8-bit vibe but doesn't force you to play the bank switching game to access more than 64K. DVI instead of VGA itself is also enough to give it a much better chance of success.

In a lot of cases, they aren't left with much of a choice. Many chips aren't in production any longer, either due to them being custom chips or due to them serving a need that the market no longer has. Stuffing everything into an FPGA isn't really a solution in this case since it effectively makes it a hands-off machine.

What do I mean by hands off? In terms of software, it doesn't make much of a difference. You can still develop for the machine and it will appear to be the genuine article. In terms of hardware, it is a different ballgame. At best, slots and ports may be exposed so stuff can be added to the machine. It will be a bit like using a modern desktop, albeit with the opportunity to develop your own expansion cards since the expansion bus can be more accessible than PCI-e. On the other hand, most modifications to the hardware itself must be made through the FPGA. The FPGA route will be more flexible, but it requires an entirely different skill set. Relatively few people have the skill or interest to deal with FPGAs, particularly if they are seeking something more comforting than modern hardware.

How is replicating something like the video chip with an FPGA somehow acceptable? Presumably it is because it has to interface with the rest of the system in a conventional way and since people were unable to modify the video chip in vintage computers anyhow. Since it is interfacing with the system in a conventional way, you can also mess around with the video circuitry surrounding the chip.

I'm building a hobby computer from scratch with a modern 80s era CPU. Anyone doing this kind of thing as a hobby has to decide what kind of project it is, what you want to get out of it, and where you draw the line between modern and old.

For me, I had never done electronics before so actually wiring up the components and doing logic at a electrical level was interesting in itself. But also I'm interested applying my programming knowledge to the limitations of that era. It's sort of an art project. No matter what, a computer today with an 8Bit CPU isn't practical.

I'm going to have a 6502 CPU, I'm going to try for 1MB of RAM banked, SD card for storage, and I'm thinking of using a Pi Pico as a VGA graphics card. Obviously using a Pi Pico in a project with an 8bit CPU is "silly" but that still satisfies my own goal. Other people working on these types of computers tracking down chips from that era or are building their own TTL-logic basic graphics cards because they have different goals.

Pretty cool. I am not too knowledgeable about fpgas but the 144 qfp or bga parts have so many pins. If you have 32 clocks per clock of emulation that is plenty leeway to have an awesome debug header and monitor that was never possible with the real thing.

Defining success is tricky for these. For some of them I think the people creating them are perfectly happy with just getting something for themselves and a handful of enthusiasts.

I agree with you, though. If I absolutely wanted physical hardware, I'd get a real one, or an FPGA reimplementation on a general board like MiSTER [1] that'd also let me run other cores, or something like the Ultimate 64 [2] (fit's in a real C64 case). I'd be more inclined to buy one of these "8-bit alternate reality continuity" thing, if something like the (FPGA based) Mega 65 [3] becomes reality.

[1] https://misterfpga.co.uk/

[2] https://retrogamecoders.com/ultimate64-review/

[3] https://mega65.org/

You're probably right, but I'm going to order one as soon as they become generally available (providing the price isn't too expensive). I'm not interested in owning a real C64 because of its complete absence of modern conveniences (VGA, external keyboard, etc).

What I see is a system designed specifically to be tinkered with and learned from. You have large, simple components, lots of expansion possibilities, fixed up BASIC, etc.

I learned on computers such as these and it was a GREAT help in understanding how they actually accomplish basic things like talking to devices, handling memory, dealing with problems, communicating with other computers, etc. This brings back that magic while also removing some of the more unsightly warts of the original systems, and also interfaces easily with many conveniences of the modern era. For $100 that's a great toy to learn on.

There’s now quite a few of these ‘new retro’ projects around, but right now you can’t actually buy any of them from stock (Foenix, Commander X16, Mega65, ZX Spectum Next)

These projects often seem to get bogged down in the costs and practicalities of creating the plastic parts rather than the electronics/software. Large injection-molded enclosures aren’t cheap (for lowing-volume products) and custom keyboards/key caps are even harder to do. (Still waiting on Amiga key caps from a Kickstarter about 4 years ago… apparently it’s still happening eventually…)

That can lead to long delays and high prices.

> I have a C64, and anyone who really likes that platform can either buy one on ebay or emulate it.

Anything that has actual retro hardware is bound to be niche. I am extremely happy with my C64 Maxi. It’s emulated, has an HDMI output, USB, can be a C64 and a VIC-20 and is a reasonably accurate physical replica of a VIC-20. I already have a dozen actual vintage computers, but the other ones require attention and care that this one doesn’t and that’s a killer feature: it can be used pretty much the same way one would approach a computer in the mid-80s - it’s a computer, not a museum piece. You attach it to a TV, not to another carefully preserved artefact.

The physical mimicry is, what I think, the most important part. You relate to a physical object that feels the same as the original and that allows you to explore what the original was and felt like.

I’d love to see more of this, because it’s easy to manufacture and inexpensive enough to be put in the hands of children who can then have a blast exploring a bit of our past. My 8yo loves it. Now I wish they added C16/Plus 4 emulation, and that they did C128 and C65 ones.

I think part of the excitement over real hardware is the potential that clever programmers can find ways to get more out of the hardware than it was designed for as in the real 8-bit era. While I think things like Pico-8 are interesting, there really isn't the possibility for things like new graphics modes that weren't programmed in by its creator the way real hardware can surprise you.

I think a reasonably priced RISC-V psuedo-retrocomputer that boots directly into Lisp / Scheme on simple to use hardware would be a great computer to learn programming on.

Should be just as understandable to a newbie as a 6502 / Basic combo, but with a much better path to current computing environments.

I think it will be successful, for a reasonable definition of success (e.g. fulfilling a dream of designing a computer and turning a small profit in the process). There is some precedent for this: retro-like computer games, for both modern computers and the original hardware; peripherals that support vintage computers; vintage computer clones that are based upon emulation or FPGA; hobby computer kits offering similar specifications. While none of those examples are the same, they demonstrate that people are willing to spend money to recreate rather than replicate an earlier era of computer history.

I'm also really curious to see. Something about it appears weird to me more than other "retrobrew" projects, and I'm not quite sure what it is. E.g. the RC2014 ecosystem is also a totally new system around old designs, and somehow I see more appeal in that.

It is like model railways. You are selling to an older demographic with little interest from younger people.

Older people do have money though. In 1983 it was not possible for them to upgrade to a C64 from their ZX81 or VIC-20 because they lacked the money and Christmas only came once a year.

Nowadays though they can buy these toys without having to leave their chair.

8-bit guy is known for destroying rare prototypes with his lack of engineering knowledge

https://twitter.com/textfiles/status/1309664882283950081

https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/izuswa...

Always loved this. I wish people would dream more like them.

The Commander X16 is a computer that you should be able to understand how it works. You should be able to start the computer and poke away at the hardware and see results immediately. The Amiga is better and more usable, but it is a lot of complicated hardware.

Part of the appeal of old school computing was always lusting after the next computer in magazines that was way out of your price range. It's not like nowadays where an unnafordable PC plays games at a better framerate than what you have now. New computers were a huge leap in power.

So people want to evoke the spirit of their dream computers. Hardware that they always wanted but could never afford (or often never even existed)

Most of isn't "retro-next" computing. There are a _very_ small number of projects of that kind, most notably the X16, the Mega65, and the Spectrum Next. The Maximites might fall into that, as might the MiST and MiSTer boards, but that's debatable. What _most_ people do are extensions to existing hardware (like the Amiga Vampire), replacements for failing chips (which might also include extra features because there's space still left on the FPGA), &c. Arguably, I wouldn't include the Mega65 in the list because it's meant to be more or less what was intended to be released as the Commodore 65, which basically leaves the X16 and Spectrum Next. The X16 and Spectrum Next are meant to be idealised forms of the respective machines they're based on, with the Next maintaining compatibility.

What most people build are things like Z80-based SBCs that behave like the CP/M machines of the past, but can take advantage of things like CompactFlash and higher clock speeds, but are essentially period accurate otherwise. Personally, I'd love to build a Jupiter Ace with all the random glue logic reduced down to a PLD, expanded enough to support an ~80-column display.

That sounds interesting, what are the exact rules of this game? Are you only allowed to use components that actually existed at the time, or ones that might have existed? I.e., do you have to use a 6502, or can you design a better CPU, using modern knowledge, but considering old fabrication techniques?

Well, electronics-oriented owners have built “next” systems even back in the '80s (and '90s) (and '00s): overclocked (non video signal related parts), added memory (in a dozen of more or less incompatible ways), added expansion boards with a lot more powerful hardware, etc. Usually, the more someone was into it, the more unique their configuration was. So it continues to this day.

At the same time, anyone can actually go the pure retro way, and spend a couple of days soldering the period-correct home computer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rWCYo1UcOQ

At a guess, it's harder to get your hands on weaker chips in larger quantities. Larger chips are dirt-cheap, while for weaker ones you'd either have to raid NOS from warehouses, or fab it yourself (which is expensive, and sometimes outright impossible - I don't think we've got the tech to fab a SID chip any more, for instance).

The outside might not give you retro-vibes due due the case/keyboard design but inside it's still pretty retro. It's running an 8bit CPU and Microsoft BASIC.

Nothing is stopping you from buying the board and 3D printing a retro case/keyboard for it.

Where did it lose the retro vibe for you? I see a board with very few simple chips where you could reasonably understand the whole system top to bottom. The hardware is still very limited.

32-bit, megabyte-order-of-magnitude is a much more interesting place to be than C64-equivalent hardware. You can actually make things that look and feel good, but you still need to be clever about it.

Nintendo GBA and DS are very much in this space, and are great fun to work with.

You can run RISC OS on a Raspberry Pi, that also supports a "Boot to BASIC" mode.

There are a number of hobby projects that aim to do exactly that (provide the instant-on, boot to BASIC experience of old 8 bit micros) without just being a recreation of an old system.

One that looks particularly interesting is the Color Maximite 2, which meets your specs except for the HDMI out (it uses VGA):

https://geoffg.net/maximite.html

Here you go -- exactly what you asked for. FOSS, available today.

https://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/Software%...

You could boot BMC64 on the Pi: https://github.com/randyrossi/bmc64

Not exactly what you want but there's Dosbian which boots the Pi to a dosbox instance, no login or desktop.

The MiST does all of that:

https://amigastore.eu/en/358-mist-midi-fpga-computer-with-mi...

221,95 Euro (Approx 271 USD)

Agree with HDMI. But you can get plenty of new 4:3 aspect ratio displays — primarily meant for security cameras, backup cameras and the like.

I imagine you could always use third-party peripherals for this.

There is an SD card slot on it that you can use for storage.

there are subtle differences.

some people want the real hardware. some people want to need a stack of cartridges or tapes and to go through the motions of committing to a decision such as which game to play.

if it is virtual, or emulated, there's almost no weight to decisions you make, because it's so easy to switch games if you don't immediately like the game you chose. I find that I don't give things a chance as I would if I had to get up and walk to change a cartridge in a real SNES, as an example.

if emulation works for you, then emulate. go crazy. I don't get emulation, and I'm not going to tell someone that they're wrong for liking it, because they aren't.

for some, emulation isn't enough, that's all.

there are also technical reasons people don't like emulation, but most people don't care about those as much as they care about the experience of the old school systems.

But it's not a modern system. At it's core is an 8Bit CPU.