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Comment by jdmoreira | Hacker News Reader

Sounds like it was consensual and between adults. People need to stop worrying about other people’s sex life.

In general, I am aligned.

In the specific case of an employee and CEO (or board member), it seems that having a policy against that is reasonable.

We don’t let prisoners and prison guards fraternize. We don’t let military officers fraternize with enlisted soldiers (or NCOs with junior enlisted).

If I lead a team and I’m sleeping with one of them, it’s practically impossible for everyone to feel like they’re being treated equally.

Prison and the military are both extreme environments. A business should obviously not be aspiring to be that restrictive.

Not between boss and employee, that is not “just sex”.

It is. Unless he forced her, but we aren't talking about rape here.

There is no reason why one could not separate work and a relationship. That will of course not work for everyone but you can not simply generalize and assert that it can not work in general.

Did his wife consent? She may have, but if she didn't and he publicly vowed monogamy to her, it calls his character into question.

If there is a power imbalance it is not appropriate. And it seems that this was the conclusion of the board.

It’s peculiar that corporations decide what’s appropriate and not, even in your love life.

It is very common that relations with subordinates are not permissible exactly because of the power imbalance. If (s)he says no, what could the repercussion be?

HR is not there for you, but for the well being of the corp.

In the same vein relations between managers and subordinates are not permitted, not to protect the well being of the subordinate, but to protect the well being of the corp.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

It’s not peculiar if the sexual relationship is intertwined with a different legally recognized relationship status, such as employment, at which point there may be a criminal violation of harassment or assault. Criminal violations, especially if repeated, can harm a company’s reputation and open the company to various forms of civil litigation.

There is nothing in the laws of this country that makes an employee/manager sexual relationship a criminal offense. There is no criminal law against "sexual harassment," which exists as a legal concept only for purposes of employment discrimination lawsuits. The only legal consequence of a manager/employee relationship is that the employee can easily turn around and sue the company for sexual harassment or wrongful termination by convincing a jury that something more happened, e.g. that the manager conditioned promotion on sex, fired the employee for ending the relationship, etc.

If you know that is a high risk scenario then the company’s legal advisors should put rules and enforcement in place to forbid such relationships and thereby transfer liability to offending employees.

There is no individual liability for sexual harassment in the US, only for employers. Anyway, my point was just to respond to someone claiming there was criminal liability.

That is tough and bad for the company... Wherever love falls is my opinion on it. I think someone in leadership position has to recuse himself from managing their love affair, but that would be his decision. Military can be another exception.

Would never date my boss though if I didn't have an exit plan. Doubt you would ever get happy if such a relationship fails.

She started making demands. Some of those, if public, would impact the perception of Microsoft and the board. It is therefore in the board's interest to be concerned.

If we took on more of a French attitude about extramarital behavior (see: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/14/french-more...), it would reduce the power that "the other woman" has... which might actually discourage some from assuming that role.

Can you describe the power imbalance? Within the company, in principle he has authority, but for one thing, he can't act with impunity. He's responsible to the Board and shareholders, so if he promoted, demoted, fired, or otherwise exercised that authority unfairly, he could be held accountable, so that power is limited.

For another thing, his authority is only one source of power. She can go to the media, where even allegations could inflict huge damage. In this case, the employee seems to hold tremendous power since she could publicize a consensual (with her), though extramarital (not likely, though possibly, consenting from his wife) relationship in the workplace.

I'm not saying good, bad, right, or wrong. I'm just wondering what the power imbalance is in practice.

>He's responsible to the Board and shareholders, so if he promoted, demoted, fired, or otherwise exercised that authority unfairly, he could be held accountable, so that power is limited.

All true, but he could say to her boss "I don't like her, make life hard so she leaves". He doesn't even need to ask for her to be fired, just make life hell: move her desk near the toilets, don't invite her to meetings, give her the shit jobs etc.

What if you were her boss? Would you tell the guy at the top "No"?

Even if you had the balls, what's to stop him then going to your boss and pointing the finger at you?

It has all sorts of repercussions.

Agreed. If the person wasn't a direct report (very unlikely as he was only a board member, not an active employee) it's not an ethics issue for the company. It's not nice to his wife but this is between him and her.

This doesn’t work like that, he’s the owner, there is always a power imbalance with any Microsoft employee.

The alleged affair would have occurred while he was still CEO. It's definitely an issue if the CEO is having affairs with employees.

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