EU citizens arriving in UK being locked up and expelled
theguardian.com
theguardian.com
This nastiness is what the public demands.
Well, not all the public. Immigration enforcement got a rather different reception in Glasgow: https://twitter.com/david_millar/status/1392969258989150208
But yes, British visitors to the EU who cannot enter for whatever reason are just sent back on the same flight or wait at the airport for the next one.
I think EU and UK people can visit the USA for a job interview under the visa waiver programme. A Nigerian can't. It's the same difference.
Unlike the EU, where about 30% of illegal immigrants are expelled, while no one no one is interested in changing that legal status.
People are offering to buy their own ticket, but no they're sent to detention for no reason, at taxpayer expense.
People are offering to stay private, but no they're sent to detention at taxpayer expense.
A Czech woman is being sent to Mexico instead of allowing her to pay herself to fly home to Prague.
All this spending of UK taxpayer funds for what? Out of spite?
It's annoying and slightly weird, but isn't that just how it works? You go 'back where you came from', not wherever you want or claim to live?
Say the woman in your example was refused by Czech customs, and sent back to the UK, then what? Dig through records (would they have them?) to find she came to the UK from Mexico, and then send her there?
Correct me if I'm wrong, I just don't think that would be different in any other country. (That particular aspect I mean, assuming they've decided you're not allowed in, and will be deported to somewhere.)
Considering she is Czech, she is far more likely to be rejected by Mexican customs rather than Czech customs.
:-)
I was trying to convey the fact that citizens from eu countries are not at the level of other third countries yet. For example you can still travel using just a national id card until October.
I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your comment though.
Be very careful with such a statement.
Regardless of where you sit on the issue, the Brexit referendum was roughly 50:50. The UK is fiercely split [1] and such issues are not going to be resolved anytime soon. It is incorrect to state such a policy is popular..... roughly half the population voted against it.
[1] And dare I say it... looks in danger of splitting up.
If the policy is "popular" - which it isn't, except among the reactionaries - it's in no small measure because the UK media have normalised this kind of abuse.
This kind of thing is almost a predictable syndrome associated with post-colonialism. Other countries have been through it, now it's the UK's turn.
When countries lose their empires/influence, racism and fascism provide a compensation that can temporarily restore childish fantasies of omnipotence.
It's associated with a death wish, so things generally get worse - sometimes much worse - before they get better.
> The UK is fiercely split [1] and such issues are not going to be resolved anytime soon. It is incorrect to state such a policy is popular..... roughly half the population voted against it.
You tried to dispute that by pointing out that the Conservatives won comfortably in 2019. I don't think it does given that the vote share in 2019 still suggested a roughly 50:50 split of the population.
CON, DUP: 44.4%
LAB, LIB, SNP, GRN, CYM: 50.7%
Brexit is now done so last week's local elections can't be used as a point of reference on that subject.
Yes they did. From their party manifesto[1]:
> Within three months of coming to power, a Labour government will secure a sensible deal. And within six months, we will put that deal to a public vote alongside the option to remain.
Large numbers of voters switched from Labour to Conservative because of Brexit. It's probably fair to count all Labour voters from that election as "not in favour of Brexit".
1. https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Real-Change...
Nope. They won exclusively due to targeted "hidden" campaigns via Facebook and other directed means, sending messages designed to sway the voters in a number of very narrowly decided constituencies. This is how they got 56.2% of the parliament seats despite winning only 43.6% of the votes.
In that respect, I suspect it is a popular policy among those who enforce it.
Besides which, the conflation of a desire for immigration control with racism is a lazy canard.
The numbers are still viewed as being too high though post-lockdowns who knows what will happen. But the limits can at least now be spread around all countries equally, and people can be prioritised based on e.g. demand for their skills. This was previously forbidden.
>One second generation immigrant I spoke to said some Pakistani people campaigned for Brexit because they wanted to “control immigration in a way that was favourable to the Indian subcontinent”.
>“One of their arguments was that, if we leave, we’d be better able to accept people from the Indian subcontinent, professionals such as doctors, rather than taking them from Europe,” he said. “There was that strand that we’d lost control of immigration, that lots of people from eastern Europe were coming over, but, therefore, people from the Indian subcontinent weren’t getting a fair crack at the whip and it was that disparity. They felt the immigration system was unfair.”
>While EU migrants generally benefit from freedom of movement, those from countries such as India and Pakistan are subject to visa and work restrictions – a distinction that was played on by Vote Leave’s Michael Gove during the referendum campaign when he suggested that Britain’s immigration system was “racist”.
https://bylinetimes.com/2019/04/08/the-story-of-brexit-is-th...
But conversely during the time that she was allowed to be in the UK, she had the right to vote while EU citizens didn't.
Like you I don't think commonwealth citizens who voted for Brexit were being racist, I do think it was sometimes vindictive though which doesn't really make it much better.
This may or may not sound common sense but to me that is the root cause of it all.
Before 2004, when the first and main batch of Eastern European countries joined the EU no one really cared about free movement: It was all within Western Europe and did not create problems.
Then, literally millions of Eastern Europeans moved to the UK and that created social, cultural, and economical problems and the people impacted were shocked to be told that there was absolutely nothing the government could do. The rest, as they say, is history.
Immigration Enforcement have power of arrest for this circumstance. The Information Commissioner has uniformed officers with limited police-type powers for their area of work too.
And I'd prefer no speculative high-drama arrests of people who are following the rules and not breaking the law.
> María, 25, from Valencia, said that like many of those detained, she thought she was free to explore the job market at least until October
This sounds like coming to the UK for work without a visa, in which case it is correct in law to be detained.
I think the practice of detention for up to 7 days before being deported is a way to inflict a punishment to deter people trying. Indeed, if the only thing you risk if caught is being turned away at the airport then people would just try and try, why not?
There are articles from sources a bit more balanced than The Guardian: https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-citizens-detained-uk-work...
They are not given ability to contact their embassy for held getting out of the country.
Some cases they say they could pay for a plane home again but got detained anyway.
Furthermore the reason they are detained are rather undefined. It says that they can go to UK for interview for example, but they are still detained. They tried to enter legally but the rules does not seem to be followed.
Some in the article were held for two days, which in my eyes are not a speedy return. This is waste of UK money and a bad system.
sounds like a weird strawman. Do you know of any larger group seriously fighting for that at the moment?
(People coming for a scheduled interview are not "unrestricted immigration for looking for work")
The article also mentions a French woman who was detained for attending an interview for an internship, so I think there's that too.
Imo, it's obviously very unclear as to why they're being detained, but in the case of Eugenia (Spanish woman arriving to "look for work"), it was clearly illegal per the new law.
That said, I don't take it as a given that unrestricted immigration would cause problems; it has never been tried, there is no data to go on.
A breakdown is available here:
https://dominiccummings.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/screensh...
You're entitled to feel this way, but it's completely irrelevant to this discussion. It's a matter of fact that the Home Office says it's legal to enter without a visa to look for a job, and yet that's not what's enforced at the border.
I'm in the USA and this polemical strawman is standard fare on Murdoch's Fox News. It's just a lazy way of dismissing the issue without real discussion.
Asylum seekers get £40 a week. https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get
People complaining about immigrants claiming welfare have usually been lied to by the press about the applicable situation.
So you're saying democracy is bad?
It's baseless to believe that the home office would target something in Sturgeons constituency on some particular day, especially when there's no political advantage to be drawn by said act.
Immigration law applies to Scotland too; until there's a nice border there (but that's another topic).
> It's baseless to believe that the home office would target something in Sturgeons constituency on some particular day, especially when there's no political advantage to be drawn by said act.
Judging by #10's behavior as a predictor for future behavior there is every reason to believe it was very much on purpose (and far from "baseless"). And even it wasn't on purpose it would now be on them to apologize and try to straighten things out - which ofc they don't.
To be specific I can't think of a time that #10 have gone out of their way to do something like this, or anything else to directly antagonise Sturgeon.
Nothing simple about that given that merely a year or two ago there effectively was no border, and now ordinary people who want to go look for a job sit in detention cells? Who does this help and how is it tame?
The UK more than any other European country should know the devastation borders can wreak.
Borders are determined by the desires of those within them. The right to self-determination is a key principle of international law (unless you're Spain, apparently).
It is perfectly OK if you want to have inefficient system (wasting UK money on holding people who does not need to be held) but we as EU countries just ask that you give our citizens the possibility to call our embassies before you detain them to let us help them out of your country. Until then we will continue to calling you douchebags for how you treat our citizens that are trying to enter your country legally, sorry for the emotionally loaded words.
With the UK's horrifically undemocratic voting system, the leading party often wins a strong majority of the power in Parliament with significantly less than half the national vote.
In the 2019 election, the Conservative party won 56.2% of the seats in Parliament with 43.6% of the vote.[0]
In 2017, 48.8% of seats came from 42.4% of the vote.
In 2015, 50.8% of seats came from 36.8% of the vote.
In 2010, 47.1% of seats came from 36.1% of the vote.
In 2005, 55.2% of seats came from 35.2% of the vote.
In 2001, 62.5% of seats came from 40.7% of the vote.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_el... and links to other elections at the bottom.
They are being detained because they do not enter the UK to attend interviews: The 2 women used as examples in the article did not have an interview scheduled and, as a consequence, did not have an invitation letter. They wanted to enter the UK to look for work. That's very different and, I expect, the reason they were detained as that is indeed illegal without a visa.
If it is allowed to enter visa-free to attend an interview and you have the necessary evidence (i.e. I expect, invitation letter and return ticket within 24-48 hours) I highly doubt that you will be detained.
There are always people who try to break the rules or who do not do their homework. This sort of thing happens everyday. The difference is that EU citizens are not used to this happening to them.
For instance, even before Brexit the UK was not in Schengen and I witnessed several times, both in UK and France, non-EU citizens being stopped on arrival despite being residents in UK/EU because they thought they didn't need a visa to visit Paris from London or London from Paris.
because this border issue is an emotional and symbolic issue at heart and it's important to recognize that, there is no rational case here why there should be any restriction to freedom of movement. Are you going to be that calm if Scotland attempts to exercise it or if Irish violence flares up again? Erecting borders after decades of freedom of movement is no 'simple policy'. Detaining neighbors just because you can is a sort of behavior that indicates there's something going deeply wrong in the UK.
Except that the official guidance by the Home Office clearly states that EU citizens can still enter visa-free to look for jobs. But of course as it always happens border force knows better than the Home Office. The fact that people are being actually sent to detention centres is beyond idiotic.
Reminds me of that Parks & Recreation scene where Andy's in the hospital having (for the second time) fallen in the pit, and Leslie visits chased by 'the city's lawyer' who has a long increasingly ridiculous list of interjections for things she 'can't say because it implies X'.
i.e. 'you can't say Welcome to the UK, because it implies you have been allowed in to the UK'.
Personally I think, fine, but maybe a subtler and nicer way to do it would be to position the sign on the other side of customs, visibly perhaps, and just have nothing or simply 'UK customs & border control' or whatever on the other.
What’s worrying though is the apparent bias towards detaining young women from southern/eastern Europe. Racial/national profiling?
For the interview visit, there's no restrictions based on the job qualifications as far as I can tell. (unless you can find something specific?)
So yes, that's pretty much why this article exists - they should not have been detained.
Not that I'm really surprised though. This kind of lawless (and borderline fascist) "might makes right" behavior appears increasingly popular/prolific within the UK government.
I'd suggest UK tourists spend their holidays within country borders from now on, for any of the involved countries (assuming there is indeed a pattern here, as suggested in the article) may decide to reciprocally harass or shake down UK tourist on their next visit to a warm beach. What comes around goes around.
[1] https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2021/05/parallel-un...
I wonder if we will see some more public realizations that freedom of movement is something British citizens will miss.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/10/eu-citizens...
A good book to read on the topic is Empty Planet by Bricker & Ibbitson[1]. One of their observations is that the country best placed to weather the coming demographic storm is the US, as they have a ready supply of immigrants south of their border. Every other country will have to compete, and some such as China will be in dire straits due to past misguided policies.
[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37585564-empty-planet
After millions and millions of new europeans, the public finances issues haven't got a tad better.
And yeah I won't bite the bait about supposed mismanagement in tory governments which I have no interest at all in debating in this website.
Have they gone mental? This is war.
Living in Amsterdam in tempted to report any british tourist now.
Enough with the tolerance.
Visa-free travel between the EU and UK is allowed for up to 30 days (for holidays, etc). This is pandemic policy, nothing to do with immigration or Brexit, no need to air all your pro-immigration views here.
However, when the UK was an EU member this was perfectly legal for EU citizens to do. Now it is not. So it does have to do with Brexit.
Can't work it out with the Guardian, last month they were calling for travel bans, now they are supporting frivolous travel.
Another newspaper would phrase the same events as "EU jobseekers try to sneak into the UK, are we doing enough?".
The Guardian is not secret about its views. And that's fine. You as the reader have a responsibility.
It is illegal to enter on a tourist visa and look for work. Always has been.
Finally, to the English, your politicians and your law enforcement deserve nothing less than cruelty for how they act.
No apologies.
What a truly vile statement, unworthy of HN.
Roughly half the English population (including myself) voted to remain. We are not gloating, but working hard to ensure cooperation with the EU continues.....
..... and no doubt, preparing for the next referendum to return to the EU in 10 years time (after all, a second independence referendum is now on the cards for Scotland, the precedent has been set).
I have a lot of gripe with the English for how they treat other people, perhaps if they get a taste of their own medicine they may snap back to reality and forget the greatness that was their empire (obviously /s).
As for vindication the people certainly deserve not what's coming and happening to them, the true villains sit in the news rooms pumping out racist and dividing shit calling itself "free media" but the truth is it's run by a bunch of oligarchs. Eat the rich and bring guillotines to these places so that the poor and brainwashed people who've been fed on a steady diet of divisive garbage and are the real victims in this sham won't get hurt. It's a really easy trolley problem this one. Sadly history shows that the trolley company is the one that tends to win.
A lot of us have spouses from EU countries and we watch in horror as people like Priti Patel turns the UK into her version of 1984.
Chances are very high that those brits that travel to the EU, who might get this vindictive treatment, are not the ones that voted for Brexit.
The EU, and all the members have a responsibility first and foremost to their constituents, and their constituents are getting thrown in jails, for no fault of their own, just the vindictiveness of the Brits. There is no flame war, I am literally asking for our Governments to take action.
By flamewar I mean things like indignant provocation and denunciatory rhetoric (especially on divisive topics). You made numerous such posts in this thread—that's really bad, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. It goes against what we're trying to achieve here (thoughtful, curious conversation on intellectually interesting topics) and it does so by doing the equivalent of setting the commons on fire.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules, we'd appreciate it. Note this one: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."
From a quick look at your account history it seems that your comments have traditionally been excellent, so this should be pretty easy to fix.
The UK's government and media certainly are.
In a sense it is only natural to become a bit megalomanic if you're called "the united kingdom", a name so full of grandeur and dreamlike romance that even tolkien would be a bit envious.
Combine that with 40 years of anti E.U. media and you get a situation where people vote against their own self interest because they think they are better off alone.
I for one can't wait for our scrottish brethren and sisters to rejoin us. They may take your passport but they will never take our article 49.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
At times of stress we seek out the enemy. And external imaginary enemy is always easier to accept than internal or god forbid a bad habit that we are all guilty of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chALQCm9VgE
> the cruel and degrading treatment
I don't think this part has as wide support as the part where people see entire towns lose their jobs, while from their point of view foreigners are being let in left and right. Those foreigners didn't literally take their jobs, but someone's gaining jobs and someone's losing jobs.
It may be good for the economy, but you know that saying "taxation without representation"? Yeah, the government is supposed to represent the voters. And from these local's point of view they are not being represented. It's taxation without representation. And some people get upset about that.
These people didn't get elected to represent the economy as a whole or even humanity as a whole, but to represent the voting population and their interests.
Don't say "I can't understand".
More jobs = more jobs for everyone. If I immigrate to your country nobody looses a job; I get given a job that a native was unwilling or unable to take. My economic contribution to the society will also increase the total number of available jobs, meaning more jobs for everyone.
Well, except for the spelling of "lose".
This is one of those.
It's telling people there's no point in engaging, there's nowhere to go from here.
Yup, but the whole notion of sovereignty has become so remote an bizarre to folks living in Europe that this is shocking news to most.
I think you missed the point. The problem is not only controlling entry depending on their migration status (fair enough), but the process itself, which is meant to humiliate and scare people (hostile environment).
The conditions in these detention places are degrading and people have to stay there for several days even when they say they will voluntarily go back in the first flight.
If you found some mistake with your paperwork when landing in another country I think you would appreciate being given the choice of going back immediately instead of being locked up for a few days.