Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999
frame.work
frame.work
Preparing for Pre-Orders! (Framework modular laptop) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27052468 - May 2021 (79 comments)
The Framework Laptop - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508 - Feb 2021 (991 comments)
There's also Framework’s repairable laptop is up for preorder, starting at $999 - https://techcrunch.com/2021/05/13/frameworks-repairable-lapt...
(via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27142913, but we merged that thread hither)
If I had to nitpick, it would be the fact that Linux is unfortunately a second class citizen. However, I do see that support for mainstream distros is available. Can you possibly shed some light on that and be a bit more specific? What distros have you tested? What are the outcomes?
Edit: Bit more rant about LVFS goodness
Even my Logitech 2.4 Ghz receiver gets regular updates on LVFS, can't remember it happening even with official Logitech SW on Mac/Windows. LVFS fixes the embedded controller security/bugs mess. A functional laptop like Framework when released with first class support for Linux features like LVFS can add more value to the customer.
With that one specific preinstalled kernel image.
For what it's worth, I had two XPS 13s in a row and the one that came with Ubuntu pre-installed had _way_ worse hardware compatibility problems.
Now there's a repairable, upgradable choice, it's going to be hard to get me to do anything else.
1. AMD is having major supply issues and is not allocating their supply towards laptops. Laptops are just not a huge priority for them right now when all of the consoles, desktop CPUs, and GPUs are flying off the shelves.
2. Intel not only has consistent supply but Intel frequently works with "experimental" projects like this helping OEMs with design. Complete speculation but I would not be surprised if Intel had a hand in the design of this laptop.
I wonder if it is a supply concern? Zen2 laptops also ~seemed~ in scarce supply for quite some time last year, even after the launch.
How to tease out Intel’s anti-competitive belligerence versus actual supply issues? Zen3 on desktop seems to be regularly available, but desktop is lower volume than mobile.
This really deserves an AMD variant.
I would suspect Intel has juicy bundle discounts, especially if this is a part of the EVO program (which I don’t think it publicly is).
I really like the idea of Framework - especially how easily the KB appears to be replaceable.
The keyboards on the Clio made S76 machines I had (gazelles) were completely non-replaceable.
What would be great ultimately is a splash-proof kb on a machine.
A little startup will not have got the attention of Intel, and their total volume needs are much more easily satisfied by what they can get from AMD's limited delivery than a big player could be.
1. How much thicker & heavier is this laptop than similar screen size MacBook Pro and Thinkpads? (Is the battery life comparable?)
2. Is there soldered-on RAM and/or expansion slots?
3. Can this run linux without any hitch?
——
PS: Website seems to be down for now.
> Framework is undergoing maintenance right now. Please check back in a few minutes.
We're at almost exactly the same thickness and weight as a MacBook Pro 13-inch, and lighter and thinner than most T-series ThinkPads.
The storage, both memory sockets, and WiFi are socketed for upgradeability, and the entire mainboard is upgradeable too!
We're testing for compatibility with major linux distributions, and expect near complete support (with potentially only the fingerprint reader driver coming in later).
“ 500 Internal Server Error If you are the administrator of this website, then please read this web application's log file and/or the web server's log file to find out what went wrong.”
The hug of death.
The site is down for the moment. What is the situation about warranty?
Do you plan to offer multi-year options? I’m all for repairing my own laptop, but if there is an option to pay upfront for some peace of mind on at least the parts, I’d bite.
While the reparability helps (as I'm used to even $800 laptops calling for $300 screens + webcam + Wi-Fi antenna), if it's profitable for Framework, it'd be an instant buy here.
How do you track quality during development, production, product planning and polling for customer satisfaction?
Can you share some thoughts on the current state of quality assurance in the industry in general? Is this an area for product differentiation?
Which three parts in a laptop have the highest failure rate, and what are those rates?
What I can’t wrap my head around is, a consumer that feels strongly about repairing laptops themselves, for clearly non-economic reasons, but would balk at the cost of a laptop manufactured in the West, which is 100% of the labor the day the laptop ships, because then the computer would cost 3 times as much.
In typical consumer notebooks, batteries, hinges, ports, and keyboards would be parts that wear out over time. We've designed the Framework Laptop to make each of those easy to swap as needed.
The QR Code in the transparency section doesnt work:
https://i.imgur.com/TjfcWOP.png
"page doesnt exist"
I’ve had problems with offgassing odors that never seem to go away on multiple monitors, MacBooks and an iPad in recent years. This leads to headaches that makes it impossible to use the machines for more than a few minutes, even with good room ventilation.
It would be great to buy a laptop that is known to be low offgassing. I was wondering if a Framework laptop would have less glue and could be more effective offgassed in a shed by disassembling the components and ventilating.
Heat increases the rate of offgassing, so a medium amount of heat in well power managed devices can draw out the time for which there is noticeable offgassing for years. I have found if you can burn-in a computer or TV with heavy load (and consequently heat) for say a month or two, that usually takes care of it. But some mobile devices (especially fanless ones) are “too good” at thermal management, making this difficult. And even for devices with fans, you want to run them in a clean environment so you don’t prematurely fill the fans up with dust or worse.
The blocker that is stopping me ordering this today (besides being in Canada) is:
1. The display. I've spent the last several years using laptops with higher resolution displays (either Macbook Pros or, more recently, a 4k Dell XPS 13), and honestly, I'm not going back. It's a shame that the one thing that doesn't seem to be upgradeable right now is the screen configuration. (I realise that the Framework's display isn't exactly low-res, but it feels like it's going to be in an uncanny valley of not quite HiDPI/Retina.)
Beyond that, other things I wish were different (or at least clearer), but which aren't blockers:
1. Like other commenters, I don't use Windows, and I don't particularly want to pay for a Windows licence. 2. There's no mention I can see on the product page of how many external displays are supported, and in what configurations, and that's important to me. 3. I'd probably be more comfortable if some late pre-production units had made it to independent reviewers for judging things like battery life and the display. (I'd love to see an Anandtech breakdown of a Framework!)
We offer the DIY Edition without Windows pre-installed, and will be publishing compatibility reports for popular Linux distros.
With Intel 11th Gen CPUs, the Framework Laptop handles up to four simultaneous displays (which can be 4x external displays if you turn off the internal one).
We'll be making review units available before we start shipping products out.
Just because you don't care about 4K or retina doesn't mean it's marketing juju. People obviously find value in it.
I use 2k and 4k screens with scaling on, and it makes text and edges very clear and smooth. It reduces my eye strain significantly. Lower res than 2k is very visibly fuzzy.
It's fine if you don't value that, but to act like it's "not practical in any way" is plainly wrong.
There are people in every laptop thread pushing the narrative that anyone who prefers a higher resolution screen is delusional or lying. It's really strange.
> There are people in every laptop thread pushing the narrative that anyone who prefers a higher resolution screen is delusional or lying. It's really strange.
people get frustrated when they can't find a SKU with their preferred feature set. 4K is not without its drawbacks (dramatically increased power consumption and lackluster hidpi support in some software). imo, 1440p is a much more reasonable upgrade for most laptop sizes, but it seems that most models only offer 1080p and 4K SKUs. sometimes you can't get the high end parts without also getting a 4K panel.
The only thing missing for me is an ethernet port (which I need to connect to the internal network at work). Do you have any plan to add it as an extension card ? If no, any technical reasons why not ?
Some dell latitude laptops have a connector that "packs" itself, making it slim enough to be buit-in, without bumps. Is this an option for you folks?
How much do you think it will bump out? Will the laptop be stable on an even surface?
The tops of the keys are flat, giving very little "context" to your fingers for accurate typing. It is hard to find the center or edges of the keys, which would be easier on sculpted keys which are concave and conform to your fingers.
Do manufacturers even make keyboards like that for laptops anymore?
https://www.notebookcheck.net/X1-Carbon-Gen-9-Lenovo-has-to-...
Does it run on Free Software? Put another way, what would the FSF Respects Your Freedom programme [0] make of it? How does it compare to the Purism Librem machines?
Do you have any plans to sell in the UK and Europe, through a distributor or otherwise?
> To maximize eye comfort, we use a DC mode backlight controller instead of a PWM one that can cause visible flickering
I hope this still stands, and it uses true DC dimming. If so, thank you so much!
These days it is hard to find non-PWM laptops even in premium segment.
Even high-frequency PWM is not great for eyestrain, so DC dimming is really appreciated! Some manufacturers go as low as 250HZ.
p.s.
If anyone wants to check if your display has PWM:
0. All OLED screens utilize PWM. They are terrible to view in low light environment. This means that all new phones and OLED laptops are terrible for night reading, don't do it! If you are curious about headaches after extensive screen time, guess no more.
1. For LCD laptops, however, set display brightness at 10% (can try different settings in low range, too)
2. Open some bright content (e.g. blank white page) and go to some completely dark room.
3. Using phone camera's preview screen, set it to photo mode and play with different settings of exposure (in pro/advanced settings) while pointing at the screen: try 1/8000, 1/250, etc. Also try slow-motion capture of the screen. High-frequency PWM (new Mac laptops) is quite bad, but hard to detect without special equipment, but still can easily put eyestrain. Low frequency PWM is much easier to detect with just a phone camera.
I wonder if you plan to make the hardware spec (or parts thereof like the form factor) open source? It's nota deal breaker if you don't, but would be a big plus if you do (although more challenging from a business logic standpoint, but Red Hat seems to have done OK).
I've got two questions about input:
1. Will there be an ISO option for the keyboard layout? (To support non-US layouts, and for those who aren't familiar, just changing the key mapping isn't sufficient, ISO has an extra key and a different shape on the enter key)
2. Any plans to support Sensel touchpads? The tech is really amazing (I've heard the latest described as better than a macbook)
The touchpad is replaceable, though we don't currently have plans for alternate types.
EDIT: Just did the math and your screen is 200dpi... which is very close to the 220 or so I'm used to on high-dpi, 13" screens. Maybe close enough that it won't matter?
Alternatively, is it possible to cap the battery charging at, say, 60-80%?
Since one of the key aspects of the laptop is the longevity and serviceability of the hardware, I am curious how the battery health can be managed.
And if it supported hardware calibration that would be on completely another level.
at that point, I have to wonder how much you would actually save by not replacing the screen, chassis, and storage. overall, this concept strikes me as more of a win for repairs than upgrades.
There are differences in where the display/USB ribbon connectors are and speakers are always in strange places. Sometimes the bottom tray is tapered off like a MacBook Air. Some ultrabooks are 9mm thick and others are 11mm thick, but at that point, honestly who cares?
But in general, I don't see any reason why a 13" standard for laptop motherboards+heatpipe can't exist. Out of the XPS, HP, and Asus systems I've upgraded in the last 6ish years, they've all looked more or less the same but with annoying 1-2cm differences in ribbon connectors and screw placements.
If anything, standardization might lead to more efficient use of battery compartments. A lot of laptops seem to have empty air surrounding a commodity battery that could have been 55Wh instead of 42Wh if the space was used better.
1. Would be good to know more about the UEFI on it¹, in particular:
- Whose implementation will you be using? (AMI? Insyde?)
- Will it expose the all the settings to the user?
- Will it be easily flashable (via software)?
- Is there going to be an easily accesible "alt-disable" mode for ME or, if not, an equivalent solution (e.g. the ability to leave it in manufacturing mode on the ordered unit)?
(2. Here I wanted to ask about Thunderbolt compatibility but this question has been answered already², and the answer is: "maybe.")
3. What do you mean by the pre-order being open to the US only? Specifically, can I pay with a non-US issued credit card as long as I provide a shipping address in the US (forwarder's)?
¹) Also asked here by another person: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27143526
Perhaps, if this laptop can become sustainable they may offer more keyboard options to capture larger market share. If not, competitors will fill the need.
The site looks like it's getting the hug of death, which is going to be hard dealing with on Rails unless you have some kind of caching. It looks like you're on Cloudflare. I would recommend doing site rules and turn on static html caching for a lot of front facing pages. Basically anything that isn't the laptop build page.
We're definitely having some back end issues under the load! As noted elsewhere, we're hiring in this area (help us, please): https://jobs.lever.co/framework/6935fb47-2921-49df-b94c-e45c...
But I also do think developers live in bit of a "CPU bubble", and we need to break out of it. Most people don't have pricey hardware, and no matter what your reasoning (environmental / e-waste, user experience, simple love of the craft, etc), it is important to write performant software. In using old hardware I've discovered many, many apps are so incredibly frustrating to use for average users --- borderline unusable --- and I suspect their developers aren't even aware.
So, I don't know what the issue is, if it's tech management trends (eg "sales-driven" development), or it's a lack of automated performance testing, or beefy dev boxes, or what. But IMO it's downright embarrassing to the entire industry how bad software has gotten on average.
>Every module has a QR code on it that you can scan for step-by-step instructions, support information, and a link to order a replacement from the Framework Marketplace
So its a dealer "repair" where you, the dealer, sell me a repair without the labour part in a form of black box to replace.
What about the schematics? the Board files? Firmware?
Who is the ODM? Compal? Pegatron? Quanta? Clevo? Wistron? Inventec? Flextronics?
Did you pay for fully tailor made design? Who else sells a laptop with the exact same design (ignoring form factor)? You dont have a single EE listed on staff. What part of the electrical design do you own? Do you own any part of it at all? This sure looks like tweaked Acer Swift 3 SF313-53, same ODM?
Do you own any part of the firmware that goes into the laptop? Will you be able to patch it?
"Expansion Cards" More like a build-in USB 3.1 dongles :). How much are you planning to sell them for? How many USB-C "Expansion Cards" can I chain in a row for a hilarious meme video? :)
"Great Webcam in a Laptop" Thinkpad X1 tablet 2nd gen uses same OV2740, isnt exactly known for great camera. Optics and ISP tuning are the important bits. Can you post a demonstration video instead of one 1mpix picture of a laptop screen at an angle?
Competition today: "System76 laptop engineer SUPPORTS Right to Repair; interview with Louis Rossmann" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGle6z9KfZQ
The price is lower than I expected. I wouldn't listen to the people saying it's too high.
Nice job!
That's too bad they don't talk about this DIY pre-order option that allows to customize a lot of things.
They even say they support Linux, which is a great selling point.
The lack of Thunderbolt makes it a complete no-go right now.
I'm overall very impressed with their offering and the progress they've made, but I hope it will be refined in the future.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27053745
They either listened to me or I should be a contestant on "The Price is Right". ;)
I'm very excited for this laptop! It's not even the fact that they essentially moved the dongles inside the frame, it's that it feels like a laptop for people who want to open it up and replace stuff.
probably import tariffs on tech products, with exceptions if it's below a certain amount.
Trade logistics is an interesting challenge, and one we want to solve so our customers don't have to... That is part of why we're introducing new regions in phases.
I was very excited and ordered it to an US address. But that means: I pay US tax + shipping/forwarding costs + local import tax of 30% on anything above USD150.
Also, I will have to order an ISO keyboard separately, when it becomes available (and it is not clear when that happens). I figured out that metal cover should be compatible between US and ISO keyboards, right?
I wish I could find the use for one, but I'm stuck with Apple's laptops for as long as I work in app development.
I would buy it just for the blank ISO keyboard. I hope you also add shipping from the EU.
BTW. Why does the Enter key look so strange?
It looks like a design some other laptops use, with the top enclosure cut to fit both ANSI (horizontal) and ISO (vertical) enter keys, so there's no silver metal case between the enter key and the one next to it, just dark plastic from the keyboard.
(save your Wayland/sway/"works for me" story for somebody who cares. I do have a working high DPI Linux laptop setup and am fully aware of all the tradeoffs that are required from each of the various configurations)
And how future proof/upgradable are cpu and gpu? I assume storage, ram, motherboard and usb-c will take you far otherwise.
And I wonder if it's available in Europe.
edit: oh, no dedicated GPU.
Is there a usb-c gpu that would be compatible? (edit: we'll see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27144085 )
I already replaced my battery 2 times, speakers once, wifi once. All was just so still possible on my 2016 laptop. I have an even older laptop with broken screen in use too.
If only I didn't want to run a game every now and than :). I now wonder what to get next:
- another laptop with a dedicated gpu
- something like this here and some usb-c gpu as soon as the onboard gpu doesn't do the trick anymore
- or a desktop for games and media stuff (and a pinebook for typing and youtube or just use my machine from work)
I hear surprisingly good things about remote options like https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce-now/ which would avoid you needing the hardware at all.
They do focus on AAA games though, which I don't want to afford as a casual player. I like multiplayer with friends so we usually play not to pricy or free things.
The only "single player" I'm hoping for would be MS flight sim, but even there I'd just sing a few hours, not more.
To me it feels like I should invest in a good machine with a GPU another time because:
- streaming games is just not ripe enough
- I'll keep the machine for >5 years. Good to have one bottleneck less and such long usage is worth some investment.
---
edit: maybe I should look in to https://shadow.tech/
Doing some math: 5 years * 12 month * 12$ or subscription = 720$
If I'm generous and say my gpu only stays up to date 3 years: 430$
So I have 430$ at least to spare for a local GPU and for the first 3 years will have the better performance (lag, compression, internet-dependence) and for the last 2 years I can still think about renting for another 300$.
I'd say if I keep my current computer it's worth it, if I buy a new one anyways I should get one with a gpu.
uh oh, monthly pricing is 15eur
> Build it Yourself
> The DIY Edition is the only high-end laptop you can customize and assemble yourself from a kit of modules. Coming in at just 15.85mm thick and 1.3kg, the Framework Laptop delivers the modularity of a desktop in the form factor of a thin and light 13.5” notebook.
If it works well, I might consider switching back to a laptop for my main workstation...
B) they seem to be leaving some motherboard longevity on the table by not using an AMD and/or server CPUs, which tend to use the same socket & chipset for longer.
So make it a an option please.
I got a 14” notebook with a Ryzen 7 4800H for less than 1000€ from a small vendor (Tuxedo).
Hard to choose this as it stands. Still I would support them and pay the markup. Hopefully they can support AMD CPUs in their next models.
If it wasn't cheaper then they wouldn't have much of a business model.
The last time I bought a laptop was 2014. It was a Macbook Pro 15'. Even then, 8 GB was an irritating amount of RAM, so I bumped it up to 16 GB.
7 years later things have hardly improved.