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Comment by nerdponx | Hacker News Reader

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> [The reason] is Congress. In 1997, Congress passed the National Defense Authorization Act, one section of which is titled, “Prohibition on collection and release of detailed satellite imagery relating to Israel.” The amendment, known as the Kyl-Bingaman Amendment, calls for a federal agency, the NOAA’s Commercial Remote Sensing Regulatory Affairs, to regulate the dissemination of zoomed-in images of Israel.

> The amendment prohibits US satellite imagery companies from selling pictures that are “more detailed or precise than satellite imagery of Israel that is available from commercial sources.”

> In practice, “commercial sources” has been interpreted to mean companies outside of the US that up until recently were not major players in the multi-billion dollar space industry.

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Article is old, 2019. Kyl/Bingman is already being loosened up:

https://spacenews.com/u-s-government-to-allow-sale-of-high-r...

SpaceX also got in a little bit of trouble when they launched the Tesla Roadster with Starman aboard. The unlicensed live camera above a certain altitude was a no-no.

Why does Israel get this special treatment and not others?

Maybe I'm being willfully naive, but isn't the violence of today the reason why? You don't want to give extremists ready access to more detailed targeting information than they already have. Having never aimed a rocket before I don't know how it works, but I'd imagine it would be helpful to have detailed satellite maps showing possible weak spots in infrastructure and strategic locations.

Satellite imagery is not available, yet HD photos are available in Street View? Doesn't make sense too much.

You tend not to launch rockets from a few metres away from the front door of your target.

It tends to be from kilometres away, and you tend to target from above.

More "satellite view" than "street view".

The Guardian had a quote in 2007 saying that the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades was then using Google Earth to target rocket attacks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_...

(Of course, that's one now 14-year-old assertion from one militant group among several, so that doesn't really show whether this is more or less prevalent over time -- and the U.S. legislation on satellite imagery discussed in the newer article is from 1997, so it wasn't responding to this specific practice.)

Generally, armed groups with serious missile capabilities are able to source their own intelligence for strikes. The fact that we've ascertained, somehow, that Hamas et al. use Google Maps to inform their targeting calls into serious question claims against the assymetry of capability on which the legitimacy of tit-for-tat missile/air strikes rely.

Israel doesn't justify its counter-strikes based on "equal firepower" or capability, nor should it.

It's more "if you launch a rocket at us we will flatten the militants and workstations of the organisation that fired it", which in my opinion is justifiable.

The alternative would be wildfire rockets in return, and you can be sure the body count would be much higher in that case - particularly given Hamas's tactic of firing from neutral territory (ie in 2018 when they repeatedly fired from the carparks of schools, and housed weaponry in the basements of UN hospitals), also known as "meatshield" defence.

What you're describing is indeed "tit-for-tat"; they hold that there is an equal capability for harm (not "equal firepower", which is a strawman).

But there clearly isn't. Those rockets rarely reach ANY target, and if this is part of the reason why, it makes Israel's behavior that much more repulsive; it's gruesome theater where a superpower allows a few desperate and over-proud men to lob firecrackers at them so that they can "justify" "responding" "in-kind" with indiscriminate force.

The alternative is and always has been retreating from its campaign of colonial expansion and working with Palestine as a partner rather than against it as an aggressor.

But that's obviously not true. Hamas launched these rockets into Tel Aviv and killed multiple civilians.

It is grotesque to claim that Israel should accept this without response, or only launch an equally sized rocket back (???).

Israel still drops blank rounds and pamphlets as warning, before striking buildings used by Hamas (if they also house civilians, which they usually do).

Israel takes steps to avoid any noncombatant deaths. Hamas actively aims for noncombatant deaths.

Edit: oh and I simply disagree that firing rockets at civilians is a legitimate tactic in response to land disputes.

Perhaps some of the Israeli settlements are unjustly resulting in eviction of Palestinians - this is rarely if ever actually proved instead of simply claimed by Hamas and its supporters - but even that doesn't justify bombing civilians in a different city, does it,

There is violence is lots of parts of the world. You are correct of course, but this reasoning also applies to Syria, Yemen, and probably some other places where there have been missile attacks as well. Are similar restrictions in place for those locations (maybe there are? I don't know.)

No other ally has enemies on the border who think it’s appropriate to launch hundreds of rockets indiscriminately into civilian centers as a form of protest.

ETA: I’m not sure how this is controversial, over 700 rockets have been launched without any specific target in mind aside from “Israel” in the last day. Random ppl have been killed including an Israeli Arab family.

What was Israel’s response?

A bunch of targeted strikes that took out Hamas leadership and no one else and a few knock&demolish missions (basically if the IDF thinks a building is being used as a hamas HQ but it’s full of civilians they drop a blank on it to warn everyone to get out usually they also drop leaflets saying get out now then a few minutes later they drop the real bomb. So basically there’s enough time for everyone to get out and away but not really enough time for the hamas operatives to save anything. Also it sends a very clear message: don’t harbor terrorists in your midst as you might end up losing your office or home.)

> What was Israel’s response?

> A bunch of targeted strikes that took out Hamas leadership and no one else

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/gaza-israel...

That's why what you're saying is controversial, it's factually incorrect. Israeli airstrikes this week have resulted in the death of at least 10 children. And considering all the recent violence started with Israeli actions ( expulsion and illegal resettlement, restrictions on religious gatherings around probably the holiest of Muslim religious times, and very violent responses by police when there were protests against those things), it's hard to accept your one-sided argument.

Hamas should stop indiscriminately targeting Israeli civilians, but it's not like they have much choice - what else could they possibly do? Nothing? Obviously that's not in their interests, and diplomacy has gotten them nowhere.

Israel should stop illegally occupying and settling Palestinian land, and they easily could do.

The whole situation is fucked and there's no solution in sight, the situation and leaders have to drastically change for there to be a chance of a peach long term solution.

> Obviously that's not in their interests, and diplomacy has gotten them nowhere.

At no point has Hamas tried diplomacy. But you’ve just shown your true colors you’re ok with Hamas indiscriminately firing on civilians bec “what else can they do” but when Israel performs targeted strikes against Hamas, and Hamas intentionally puts children in harms way it’s somehow Israel’s fault.

There was nothing illegal about the resettlement, if you don’t have legal permission to live somewhere you’re gonna get evicted eventually.

How is it illegal to restrict gatherings? We’ve been doing that for the last year plus!

For the last three months I’ve seen daily reports of violent and sometimes deadly attacks against Jews just for walking around. It’s not like one dude punching another in the back of the head (like what’s happening in NY) it’s groups of Arabs seeking out a lone Jew and then attacking him/her. This has been happening multiple times a day for the last 3 months... you’re pretty screwed up if you think that’s ok and shouldn’t warrant a response.

If Hamas wants to fight with honor, nothing is stopping them. They instead choose the cowardly route, hiding behind their wives, elderly, and children. You also need to ask yourself, what is Hamas’s goal here: their charter very clearly spells it out: “total destruction of Israel.”

Considering the way they treated Fatah when Hamas won the election I don’t think it’s too far to say that if Hamas somehow was given power over any part of Israel there would immediately be a small scale genocide.

Additionally, that article is incredibly biased, acting as if the people in Gaza have no agency, this is a dangerous and false assumption, if they don’t want Hamas using their homes as military bases they can stop them, or better yet foment an insurrection and place in power people who want peace. But of course most in Gaza don’t want peace they like trying to kill Jews for sport and are entirely fine paying with their lives when it comes to it bec they believe in the cause. The article also entirely ignores the larger context around what’s happening and strongly implies that Israel started this and is acting unfairly, when as we’ve seen in all the other recent conflicts in other parts of the world, couldn’t be further from the truth. No other military spends as much time worrying about civilian casualties as the IDF, no one else bends over backwards to warn non-combatants of impending danger, so much so that they often end up warning the terrorists as well, your hatred for Jews is showing loud and clear here and you might want to consider the double standard you hold Jews to before you reply.

Hamas doesn’t have the technological and military prowess of China that makes it nearly impossible to overthrow them, in any given month there are as many as 10 different terrorist “gangs” operating in the region. It’s entirely plausible to suggest that if people really were dissatisfied with Hamas they could fairly easily get a change of leadership.

> At no point has Hamas tried diplomacy.

I should have said, Palestine got nowhere with diplomacy, Israel still refuses to not illegally occupy and resettle Palestinian land, so they ended up with Hamas who at least propose something to combat Israel's, again, illegal actions.

> There was nothing illegal about the resettlement, if you don’t have legal permission to live somewhere you’re gonna get evicted eventually.

I sure hope that happens to Israeli settlers in the West Bank. According to international law, the UN, and common fucking decency Israeli settlements in illegally occupied lands ( like the West Bank) is... well illegal.

> How is it illegal to restrict gatherings? We’ve been doing that for the last year plus!

Never said it was illegal, just that it was one of the things that add fuel to the fire. Jewish festivals were allowed ( and people were crushed, so obviously there were no restrictions), but Muslim ones weren't, while Muslims are getting evicted so that their lands can be resettled by Jews. Don't you see how that might be perceived as unfair by the people living as second class citizens and/or in an open air prison? And make them want to protest? And when those protests were met with extreme violence by police, everything went even more to shit.

> if Hamas wants to fight with honor, nothing is stopping them. They instead choose the cowardly route, hiding behind their wives, elderly, and children.

Sure they can, and they'd get slaughtered. That would be very honourable of them, and then Israel can do even more whatever it wanted with Palestinian lands and people. Hamas are backed in to a corner and fighting against a much better force, and have to be asymmetric to have any chance of not failing miserably. Hamas obviously hates Israel, but seriously, remove the labels ( jew, Muslim, etc.) and think - how could they not? Did Native Americans in the US just accept for their lands to be resettled and them to be displaced and shoved in reservations? Did any other ethnic group?

I'm going to ignore your low-level ad hominem attacks. If you think anyone is the good guy in the Middle East, you either haven't being paying attention since before WWI, or are enormously biased.

Btw, in the last week there have been over 350 Hamas rocket misfires that have all fallen in Gaza very close to their launch sites, ie inhabited neighborhoods full of civilians, many of these misfires resulted in civilian death. So not only are you wrong about home many people Israel has killed in Gaza, you’re supporting the very org that’s doing the killing.

> So not only are you wrong about home many people Israel has killed in Gaza, you’re supporting the very org that’s doing the killing

You can't know that, there's only one source in Gaza that can give death numbers, and that's the Palestinian "government" ( iirc their health ministry). Maybe the numbers are inflated, maybe some of the deaths are due to Hamas actions and not Israeli. Maybe.

In any case, Israel is striking Gaza, and civilians, people, including children, are dying. Is that OK for you because Hamas disregards human life, including Palestinian lives?

And like i said, Hamas have nothing else they can do besides violence. Palestinian people, living in an open air prison or as second class citizens, and being expelled for Jewish settlers, can't do anything to stop any of that. Is it any wonder some, probably the majority, support Hamas? What's their alternative? Accept Israel has won and leave their own lands for illegal resettlement? Hardly a great choice

it's the only democratic country in the Middle East and strategic partner of the US

Lebanon is a democracy. Israel is perhaps the least democratic considering they enact apartheid.

"apartheid"? Palestinians are solely responsible for their economic situation by promoting terrorism and trying to literally erase their neighbors from the face of the earth.

Read about Hamas "freedom fighters", they control Gaza now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_at...

I don't see how anything you said changes the fact that Israel is an apartheid state:

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra...

Also, you completely ignored the part about Lebanon also being a democracy. We need to stop spreading this old bit of misinformation that Israel is the only democracy.

any country, including Israel, has a right to defend itself.

when these "poor victims" bombard Israeli cities with rockets, or murder civilians in suicide attacks in the name of islamic jihad, you can't just let someone into your home who is carrying a knife and has blood on their hands.

As for Lebanon they support Hezbollah, an islamic militant group which was created by Ayatollah Khomeini and sees eradication of Israel as their holy Jihad. They are largely controlled by Syria which is dreaming of "throwing the Jews into the sea", and is as far from democracy as you can possible get.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

The number of Israeli civilians killed in those rocket attacks over the last 20 years is dwarfed by the number of kindergartens and medical facilities bombed by Israel in 2014 alone.

It's safe to say that both Israel and Palestine are terrorist states. Israel is just more successful at it.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth.

Israel is trying very hard to avoid civilian casualties but they are fighting against cowards who hide they weapons (and their militant leaders) in hospitals, schools, kindergardens and mosques.

I hate to link to WaPo but this is an exception

https://archive.is/oHdEc

Yep. Exactly like I said. They're both terrorist states. Israel is just better at it.

Lebanon is not a free democracy and I’m not sure what that has to do with this discussion anyway

There is a raft of talking points used to explain why Israel are right to behave so poorly. Many, if not most of these talking points are specious. A common one is that Israel is the only democracy in the middle east, which is absolutely not true.

What does "Lebanon is not a free democracy" even mean? You can say the same about Israel. They have many laws and restrictions that are based around religion, and religious groups are very powerful. They enact apartheid, which is about as opposite of democracy as possible. Even if Lebanon has a troubled democracy, it's definitely better than what is happening in Israel. This trope needs to be retired.

Every claim you’ve made here is false and again has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Typical response to this topic: just claim it's false and don't provide any argument or data as to why.

Lebanon is a democracy:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Lebanon

Israel is a theocratic apartheid state:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-adopts-divisive-la...

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra...

Bringing HRW as a source immediately invalidates your argument, they have zero legitimacy when it comes to any topic involving Jews.

There's nothing wrong with HRW. And even if there was, it doesn't invalidate NBC and Wikipedia.

It does though, Wikipedia and NBC both use them as legit sources despite them spending 90% of their time on Israel and 0% of their time on real atrocities. If you have someone who can’t even honestly tell you what’s going on in NK but calls himself a global human rights advocate you know something is wrong.

If you are suggesting that the media is biased for the Palestinians over Israel then you aren't discussing in good faith and there's no point to this conversation.

With this particular law, I agree with another poster that it's likely to hide the Israeli nuclear program.

As to why we tolerate Israel having nukes while nearby nations face repercussions for even mentioning nukes, they are largely a US puppet state.

Or the other way around. US is the puppet state of Israel ;-/

No, that's ridiculous. The US is unquestionably the dominant global power currently.

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