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Comment by maxqin1 | Hacker News Reader

> good food

Everyone thinks they eat good food.

Food is the number one physical measurable input into our bodies. So it boggles my mind that nutrition isn't the most studied subject, alongside maybe the study of living a fulfilling life.

Changing my eating habits has changed my life for the better. It took kidney stones (not recommended) to get me here. But even my most obese and unhealthy friends like to proudly tell me the "healthy" things their eating, and I don't have the heart or patience to try to tell them anymore.

But if you find what works for your body, food becomes more of a tool for living your best life, and something you'll defend to protect yourself and to continue living that good life, which makes the right choices so much easier.

Now maybe that's not what you need to hear, but I know it's definitely true for some other people that are going to see this.

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> Food is the number one physical measurable input into our bodies.

This is the single reason why everyone focusses on food.

It is not the biggest lever you have on your health / wellbeing. It is the easiest variable to measure and to play with.

From the research it is quite clear that apart from gross errors what you eat does not really matter to any outcome. Quantity matters, but eating more can be compensated by excercising more.

I think we have it completely backwards, the killers are: depression, burn-out and so on.

Their symptoms are : no energy to change the situation, loneliness, no motivation to move, eating too much/too many calories ...

This in the end leads to all kinds of physical diseases.

Maybe starting with what we eat is a good first step to regain control, but it is certainly not the most important part of the puzzle.

While I agree about other factors contributing, your missing how vital food is in the equation.

All of the things you mentioned are highly dependent on food. For example, high amounts of sugar will undoubtedly lead to depression and burnout, not to mention diabetes.

> starting with what we eat is a good first step to regain control

Yes, it is absolutely the first step. And it's one you have most control over. Focus on the things you can control.

> Quantity matters, but eating more can be compensated by excercising more.

Eating a little bit more can be. Eating an extra 1k kcal per day cannot be, especially as you get older. I’m in my 30s and relatively fit, and I can only burn 14 kcal per minute for 45 minutes or so. Maybe I can do an hour if I pushed it, but even Olympic level athletes top out at 20 kcal per minute.

How did you get the 14kcal number? Are there devices that measure this?

I assume exercise machines where you can not cheat by leaning on something or pausing are somewhat accurate, such as stationary bikes or elliptical or rowing machines. So my estimate is from experience with those machines over the last 15 years, and all 3 end up averaging me at around the same 14 kcal/minute. But I’m no athlete, although I do have a pretty low body fat percentage.

Also, I misremembered the Olympic calorie amount, according to this NYTimes article, Olympic cross country skiers can do 30kcal per minute:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/sports/olympics/cross-cou...

> A typical elite cross-country skier will burn about 30 calories a minute during training — by comparison, a 155-pound person on an elliptical machine burns about 11 calories a minute.

As someone that loves doing research on this, you couldn’t be further from the truth. I agree the first priority is sorting out your mental health, but after that a quality diet has massive ramifications on your life.

>>> Quantity matters, but eating more can be compensated by excercising more.

A single donut can have as many calories as running for an hour. Unless you have fantastic genetics / young it’s incredibly difficult to out run a bad diet.

Then there’s the discussion of good calories vs bad calories. If your goal is to optimize well being, what you put into your body has an outsized impact on how you feel so it’d be crazy to not pay some attention to your diet.

If you have a cooperative microbiome, eating too much won't cause weight gain because you don't absorb it all. Eating too little of course is a better way to lose weight than exercise - that's required by thermodynamics.

The food we eat has an immense impact on how we feel, and certainly has an impact on mental health issues such depression, attention, emotional regulation, etc. Every single thing you eat is the substrates from which all of your cells are made. The old paradigm looked at food as just units of energy, but that is not the new paradigm. What we eat, how we move, our sleep quality, how we manage stress - these things have enormous implications on pretty much every single health metric you can imagine.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/nutritional-psychiatry-y...

> Everyone thinks they eat good food.

Yes, probably including you.

I am very aware of things like cooked spinach v.s. non cooked spinach. I pay close attention to what I eat, and make an effort not to fall into the traps of fad diets.

I eat a whole foods based, well rounded diet, that avoids known "gotchas" like aforementioned raw spinach. Oxalate are found in many of other "healthy" foods. I'm also very lean, but still pay close attention to the role of inflammation caused by insulin, and generally do my best to keep that down by avoiding carbs and sugar (though, not completely cut out, I am not keto).

Trust me, food is not the panacea of health that everyone espouses it to be. If you were dying of cancer, even the best diet on earth for you, may not save you. That said, a life of healthy eating is definitely a good idea and there's always the chance that I would feel worse, or simply die of a heart attack, if I weren't paying attention to my diet.

Diet is absolutely important to get in check, just like exercise. But it's all too often prescribed as THE solution above everything else. This often comes in the form of some revelation someone had, visa vi some weight lost, or some medical situation from their prior eating.

For some of us, there is no issue with weight, no medical problems, we cook all our own food (never eat out), eat well balanced whole foods, and yet still life is not magically solved.

Wait, what’s this about raw spinach?

You want to steam most vegetables to make the cell walls break down (easier to digest and utilize nutrients).

Steaming is not enough, you need to cook in water and remove the water (at least for spinach and kale).

Spinach famously contains iron, but less famously also contains a substance that inhibits iron absorption. So IIRC, it actually lowers your iron, unless you blanch it and throw away the water.

Spinach famously was misreported to have iron. Somebody slipped a decimal point, and everybody after copied the mistake.

Me, I don't eat spinach anymore. Never liked it to begin with. I have eaten enough of it already to last me to the end.

Spinach famously was misreported to be misreported to have iron due to the decimal point slip: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/03063127145356...

Nothing indicates that the decimal point error ever was made, but the account about it will most likely live a long and colorful life, just like its parent myth

Spinach is a fictional plant, it was described by Linné as sort of a joke but then everyone just went with it.

But seriously, you described three layers of misconceptions in this comment thread, how is anyone supposed to know "the real truth" about anything food related, if spinach alone is such a hard subject?

> Spinach is a fictional plant, it was described by Linné as sort of a joke but then everyone just went with it.

Actually true for most vegetables we eat, they're all the same plant (Brassica oleracea).

I am corrected.

Apparently there is no documentary evidence why an 1870 measure of spinach's iron content was exaggerated. The paper cited does not explore whether it ever was exaggerated, or what its actual iron content then or now might be.

I read various reports indicating that modern vegetables have much less of various nutrients than older, slower-growing or smaller-yielding varieties, and have no idea how I might evaluate such claims. Maybe spinach harvested in 1870 had more iron than highly-fertilized 1930 varieties, never mind 2021 varieties no one, to my knowledge, has bothered to measure. Or maybe not.

Raw spinach, some nuts like cashews, and other raw health foods can be high in oxalic acid. This is something of an anti-nutrient, which at best tends to reduce absorption of nutrients and at worst can build up in the kidneys and cause kidney stones.

As with all diet data though, YMMV. Some people eat loads of yaw spinach and never develop kidney stones.

Certainly if you have a familiar history of them, you should avoid raw spinach. Cooking it reduces the oxalates.

So... another case of "too much of a good thing?" I feel like the point comes up again and again... eat a variety of foods... everything in moderation? No single food is a cure-all or magically going to fix your problems. I'm sure if you eat too much of damn near anything, there will be some negative effects.

Yes. That's my take away after years of "paying attention" to diet and health. Countless articles read, videos watched, diets tried, trends analyzed.

Through it all, it seems a general rule of thumb is:

Eat whole foods. If it requires processing in a factory, avoid it. This includes many things that you might not intuitively think of. Vegetable oils, for example are a highly processed food.

Aside from avoiding processed foods, and eating whole ingredients... Yes, eat a variety of different foods. Eat vegetables, eat carbohydrates, eat meat. Just don't eat too much of any one thing, and if you can identify something that doesn't sit well with you, avoid it!

Massive amounts of oxalates have some problems so people freak out about small amounts.

> Yes, probably including you.

Yes, I actually illustrate that in a sibling comment.

My point is that it's a practice.

And yes, your weakest link may not be food related. My suggestion is that, given that the body receives input from nothing comparable other than maybe the air you breathe, as a whole we don't pay enough attention to what we eat. In other words, Occam's razor points to food in most scenarios.

> Trust me, food is not the panacea of health that everyone espouses it to be

If "everyone" says something, doesn't that kind of make it true?

> too often prescribed as THE solution above everything else

No doctor every prescribed food as my solution. The spinach thing was more like a comment in passing. Maybe on a single page "take home" paper after surgery. I have been prescribed surgery twice, though. And both could have been prevented with food.

PS- suffer from recuring sinus infections? Quit mixing dairy and sugar (individually they're fine). And yes, that means no ice cream before bed. But if you do not want to quit, there's a survey for that!

> that avoids known "gotchas" like aforementioned raw spinach

Serious question: what is wrong with raw spinach because I eat it all the time

Oxalic acid [1]. Could cause kidney stones especially if combined with other factors that may predispose you to having them. Simply cooking the spinach can remove most of it.

Personally, I ate an amount of spinach that made me an outlier(think the maximum you could fit on a foot long subway sandwich often daily for a couple years, and that was also combined with other poor choices like gas station big gulp sodas.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid

Out of curiosity, what did you change after you experienced kidney stones? What was easy about it? What was difficult?

#1 change: actually paying attention to what your putting inside you.

Kidney stones were a long time ago now, I've been continuously evolving since, and I've been super lucky to have a lot of help with both the cooking and research along the way.

One thing I learned specifically from that incident was that:

Raw spinach != Cooked spinach.

Specifically, the former has a specific chemical that will cause kidney stones. This is problematic for someone on the subway diet who substitutes spinach for the lettuce, because, you know, spinach is healthier than lettuce... which is kind of true, until it isn't.

Edit: what was easy? Knowing the impact that little daily decisions can have (a few day stay in the hospital). Also, cutting out the soda was easy after experiencing that level of pain (the kind where things become a blur, you accidentally rip out IVs, sister passes out just from watching, etc).

Also, I've changed my diet regularly as information changes for the past ten years. Every single time I thought I was "being the healthiest I can be." That said, I'm not suggesting a specific solution. What I'm suggesting is becoming familiar with the practice of iterating on your eating habits to maximize your life (in more ways than simply extension).

There is something ironic about claiming to eat healthy and regularly changing your diet due to new information. I don't mean this in an offensive way, it's not your fault dietary advice keeps changing. It just aptly reflects how little we know about food and the effect it has on the body.

Nothing ironic at all.

That's how I treat anything that is important to me.

I like to ask questions. And the world is always changing. To think continuous change is "ironic" sounds problematic to me. I mean, that's why they little fat kid inside the large obese woman thinks it's still alright to eat cake for breakfast.

Edit: there is such a thing as eating right for your age!

I think the GP was referring to the irony of 'eating healthy' only to later find out that what was previously considered healthy is now considered unhealthy. Spinach a nice example of that - I've been eating it raw for ages thinking I was being healthy, had no idea about the potential problems.

Yes this is what I meant to say, thanks for the clarification.

Ugh, so you didn't learn anything apart from having yet another 'revelation'.

And that revelation is 'avoid raw spinach, but it's too late for me'.

You had Kidney stones. That does not make you a health Messiah, quite the opposite really.

> That does not make you a health Messiah, quite the opposite really

Nice to see how you interpreted things, but that's all it is.

My point was alluding to the continuous practice.

And the proof is what I see in my and my partner's fitness compared to that of our peers. But don't take it from some random on the internet.

Lastly, yes it's a lot of hard work, and yes that's why you're avoiding it. Good luck!

I tried the whole30 diet for fun, and it changed my body quite a bit. I used to snore, but it completely went away when I stopped eating processed food. When I started again the snoring came back.

Yes, the snoring and sleep apnea is a big one.

It was so sad to see, but weight loss from cancer in obese people does the same thing (cure sleep disorders). If only those people could have realized that before their bodies degraded into cancer.

Dealing with food would be so much easier if it wasn't one of our main sources of pleasure and relief.

Alas, it is not so. That's why adopting proper diet and nutrition is complicated.

> sources of pleasure and relief

So it can be. And I have food addicts in my family so I'm familiar with it. Have you tried cannabis?

I've adopted the opposite strategy: instead of constantly fighting against the pleasure in food, I have cultivated it. Expanded the horizons of my palate, chased amazing gustative experiences.

The result being that the immense majority of the food available to me is now "ok but not fantastic". I still take pride in being able to enjoy (almost) any food no matter how humble. But none bring me joy the way a rare fine dining experience will. And since I'm in no position to indulge on those on a regular basis, I'm never using food as a source of comfort and satisfaction.

TL;DR: appreciate and cultivate rarity (but try not being a snob about it)

What kind of good food do you eat?

The kind I've iterated on for years to maximize my body.

I wish I had a good answer, but it's similar to exercise. The best food for you is the one that works for you.

I also highly recommend no-food (don't try to twist this). Fasting for various periods is undeniably beneficial for men and women past menopause (younger women should carefully research preventing doing any harm).

Rather than tell you exactly what I eat, I'll tell you that I aim to minimize blood sugar, most of the time(exercise, and simply trying to live a little can change this). And that I also give myself permission to eat outside my boundaries occasionally, though doing so often keeps me on track in the future because of the obvious negative outcomes (which are a lot easier to recognize when you have absolute control over what your ingesting).

The science of nutrition is complex, but I'm sure a lot of programmers would be intrigued by chemistry and equations involved in metabolism. It also changes the way you think about eating. I was fortunate enough to land myself in a tough nutrition class in college, which can look more like organic chemistry.

Edit: to satisfy the downvoters: I'm mostly keto, always low carb unless it's some occasion where I'd otherwise regret not participating. Organic, and well-treated animals are also a staple (and yes, a luxury not available to all).

There are really so many little things that if you or your partner aren't significantly interested in learning about it as a hobby then you're undoubtedly going to miss a lot.

Note: to anyone asking what exactly I eat, why? You don't even know anything about me. What if I'm an athlete? Then what I eat would make a sedentary person obese. Not to mention, VARIETY IS ESSENTIAL. Ideally I would eat every single good thing that's available to maximize my exposure to good things.

Good luck to you!

Cool. So what kinds of good food do you usually eat?

Nuts, seeds, low-carb vegetables, fiber supplement, occasional fruits especially berries (exception is a avocado every day). No red meat. Fish or chicken or turkey 2-3 times per week. Occasional eggs. Fish should be wild caught and either salmon or small like sardines, herring, mackerel , etc. Probiotic and prebiotic foods. Limited dairy and only non-cow daily unless it’s A2.

Coffee and green teA but no caffeine after 2 PM. Organic as much as possible.

Spot on, thanks.

Then why didn't you just say so.

GIYF.

Or in other words, "teach a man to fish..."

You shouldn't be down voted. This is generally good advice. Human nutrition is still poorly understood and there is huge variation between individuals. The best that most of us can do is run our own n=1 experiments and determine empirically what seems to give the best results.

How do you empirically measure results for your n=1 experiment, where you are experimenter, subject, and outcome?

If I see comments providing diet advice with words like "undeniably", I lean toward downvoting them.

Obviously there's no way to conduct a high quality controlled experiment and eliminate bias. But you can play around with adding or removing certain foods from your diet. Look for correlations with how you subjectively feel, and objectively perform. You might find some effects that are large enough to be significant even with n=1. Or not.

How do you not?

You're living this life anyway, might as well try to learn from and compare your various diets.

Unless you eat the same meal every day for your whole life, I don't see how you could not learn something from it.

What did you change?

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