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Comment by biggerfisch | Hacker News Reader

The sticky part is the social network effect. Its by FAR the dominant messaging app in much/most of Europe. Some switch to Signal/others has occurred... but if you have _one_ friend who doesn't switch that you want to continue to communicate with... you're stuck too.

Not to mention, the alternatives aren't great. I'm sure others will provide a better breakdown, but at a high level:

- Signal is the best alternative but missing features like crazy that really do matter to "normal" people (can't change your phone number! Stickers only can be added from the desktop app)

- Telegram a) has a poor reputation in my greater social circle b) doesn't actually encrypt by default

- Matrix is simply not accessible to anyone who isn't highly computer literate

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I don't know what everyone use (feel free to provide a source but until then I'll treat it as an anecdote) but I live in Northern Europe (Denmark) and the only person I know that use WhatsApp regularly is my 63 year old British uncle (to keep up with his family in the UK). Everyone else use SMS, old and young (well actually more and more of the younger contacts in my phone doesn't even own a smartphone and refuse to use MMS. Hipsters I say!).

I can't see a single thing WhatsApp or Facebook messenger can do for me that signal can't do better because I simply don't need SoMe on my phone. I need encrypted SMS. Anything more than that is worse than what I already got.

To paraphrase someone young from my family: "Facebook is for old people". So is WhatsApp and Facebook messenger. But of course it's just an anecdote that covers 100% of the people I happen to know. So from my bubble I don't believe for a second that they have a future. Signal might. As encrypted SMS but not otherwise.

I live in the U.K. Basically everyone I know uses WhatsApp. My friends mostly use WhatsApp (it was to be a pretty reasonable choice even for the privacy conscious). My family use WhatsApp. My landlord uses WhatsApp. Some of my colleagues use signal but I work in tech so they aren’t very representative. I might use text to contact a stranger for some reason (say arranging pickup of something bought on eBay or Gumtree, or some other service) but they might also use WhatsApp. Some of my friends use Facebook messenger so maybe I shouldn’t care that much about WhatsApp’s privacy policy if messenger’s is so much worse.

Also in the UK and I've just opted to flat-out refuse to use WhatsApp. I think a lot of people want to stop using WhatsApp but are afraid to do so because of the imagined repercussions or a fear of missing out. I say to hell with that and I've found that, since there are, in fact, plenty of alternatives that work, people who need to communicate with me are able to do so perfectly well. A few non-tech oriented contacts have even installed Signal as a result of my stubbornness, including my landlord funnily enough.

There's an app, Silence[1], which encrypts your SMS if your contact uses it as well. It does so over the actual telecom SMS network, and doesn't break non-Silence user messaging either. Been using it for years.

[1]: https://silence.im/

edit:

F-droid: https://f-droid.org/packages/org.smssecure.smssecure

Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.smssecure....

Was Silence removed from the Google Playstore? The link on silence.im does not work for me: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.smssecure....

It's in the Play store as far as I can see.

Also here for F-droid users: https://f-droid.org/packages/org.smssecure.smssecure

There once was an app called TextSecure, who pioneered E2EE on phones, that used to work both with SMS and its own network. When they realized maintaining both networks was hard, they ditch SMS and remained on their own network. Some unhappy devs wanted to keep SMS compatibility so they forked the app, focused on that, removed the custom network named their fork SMSSecure and, after some time, called it Silence. The original devs used the opportunity of a groundbreaking change to rename their app... Signal.

Signal/TextSecure dropped encrypted SMS/MMS because it leaks more metadata, is less reliable, and is not allowed on iOS.

https://signal.org/blog/goodbye-encrypted-sms/

You are absolutely right. I started out with TextSecure myself. I switched over to what became Silence eventually.

I'm not a Signal user though after giving them several tries, and that decision seems more final by each passing days. I find I disagree too much with how their leadership and organization have behaved in relation to other projects and the direction they continue to take Signal.

Each to their own though.

https://twitter.com/martinlewerentz/status/11767946856937144...

I don't know anything about the source, but on the bottom left I can see it says "Source: Facebook internal [something]". Various other searches corroborate similar numbers. There are about 80 Million people in Germany, so this is substantial.

It also matches my (anecdotical, yes) experience of pretty much all my friends and family in Germany using WhatsApp, and me having done so as well before I moved to the US. I remember the impetus being that at that time (long before they were acquired by Facebook), SMS were expensive in Germany, but WhatsApp over data was (effectively) "free". I believe this to be the main reason why WhatsApp took hold in many countries, while it didn't so much in others (e.g. the US, where I think individual SMS were always free, but not sure).

Nowadays, some of my folks in Germany at least use Signal or iMessage.

Afaik this applies exactly like this to most of/all of europe.

I still pay $0.15 per sms. Ok i'm on a prepaid plan but still, that's ridiculous. And my separate (very slow, but more than good enough for HN, voip etc.) mobile internet only sim is $4/month. Of of course with signal that is effectively almost a flatrate for all calls and texts.

I don't know where you are at but here in Denmark I have unlimited/free SMS and using Netflixs test servers (Fast) I get 80mbit/s right now, inside my house out in the country.

Many I know have basically zero data in their plan as they don't need it for anything so there's no way WhatsApp or FB messenger can be cheaper than SMS. I think the price with only 1gb data and free SMS/MMS is something like $6.

I mean, by now several people have pretty much told you that things were and are different in other (and larger) parts of Europe than they seem to be in Denmark, likely having a big effect on the initial proliferation of WhatsApp and potentially other messengers.

Most metropolitan areas of Denmark use Facebook Messenger primarily. People will just as gladly speak to you over SMS. Contrary to the experiences of many others in this thread, I've experienced virtually no resistance to asking close friends to install Telegram to speak to me. One close friend has flat out refused because they are a Signal diehard so we just SMS.

Clearly not as they use SMS only in my circles. I can't even send a picture to some of my younger friends as they refuse to use even MMS. It's all Nokias and Sony Ericssons.

Young people in Sweden only use Snapchat

Welcome to Latvia where I have to think hard to find someone that doesn't use WhatsApp.

I find that whatever number I call from the "local craiglist" where people sell items, I find them on whatsapp.

Nearby "home depot" accepts orders over whatsapp. I can even send pics for what I want!

Kindergarden - all parents and teachers form a group and communicate there, ask questions, make announcements. Teachers may share pictures what kids are doing.

School classrooms form groups.

...

SMS unfortunately cannot share pics and videos, and location which is sometimes handy and cannot form groups.

So getting out of whatsapp is, well... big inconvenience. No one has even invited me to Signal.

Welcome to Latvia where I have to think hard to find someone that doesn't use WhatsApp.

Same here in Wales. We are in the insane situation where local taxpayer-funded bodies such as schools compel people to use foreign, tax-evading commercial services in order to fully participate.

I'm not doubting it is different in other places and circles. I personally just haven't seen it.

>SMS unfortunately cannot share pics and videos, and location

MMS can. Not only that but it is only old people that use these things according to the younger people I know. Just today I read an article about emojis: It's only for old people. Matches my experience perfectly. These chatsnsill soon die out and be replaced by something different.

I'm Indian. Everyone here uses Whatsapp. And our population is many times yours.

Not me. I've NEVER installed any app owned by Facebook including WhatsApp. Never missed it, but then I'm not a social person. My stubbornness forced a few acquaintances to install Signal.

Yes, it was like this here back when WhatsApp was new too. Not anymore though, so the point stands: around here young people see these apps as being for old people. Just today I read that they also see emojis as something grandmothers use. Matches my experience as everyone I know younger than me will at most use "(:" and not any emojis (yes, they are upsidedown too). I know many with no smartphone (old Sony Ericssons are getting expensive!).

I get the feeling from your comment that you are proud of the fact many in India use these awful apps. It's not something to be proud of. You are paying with your privacy and in India that can cause you harm a lot easier than in Denmark.

I think the problem is with the whole virtue signaling thing. Telegram is so much ahead of the competition in everything except video calls and having E2E enabled by default. (Which doesn’t matter to normal users, and will make the multi-device UX much worse.) Signal’s UX is almost as bad as WhatsApp. Their only upside is that they are more privacy-conscious. Most people don’t care about that level of privacy, when they’re so many features missing, and so much free UX money left on the ground.

Why is SMS not used more widely in Europe? It's less ergonomic than a dedicated chat app, but in the states it's the one thing everyone is guaranteed to have.

>It's less ergonomic than a dedicated chat app

You answered your own question. And "everyone" does have WhatsApp.

Nope. I don't, and I never have any issues with not having it. I communicate with my wife's family through Signal and everyone else through SMS, and my not having WhatsApp has never even drawn a comment.

Well, I'm happy for you. But the question was about Europe.

"Everyone" (scare quotes) does have it in Europe. Not having it absolutely draws comment, in a similar way that not having a Facebook account drew comment some years back. And as to why nobody defaults to the lowest common denominator of SMS, WhatsApp is vastly superior to SMS:

-seamless picture, video, and audio messaging - this is always super janky / broken on MMS

-built-in interface to Giphy

-integrated video and voice calling

-group chats (especially this)

These features are optimized for use by a meme-loving, highly social, audio-visually oriented userbase. Posting a reaction gif to a funny group chat thread is 1) vital culture and 2) impossible on SMS. That's why.

WA and Signal make international cheap. SMS from USA to ZAF, IRL, CHE or BRB is not cheap.

Because SMS usually still cost a thing per 160 characters, e.g. 0,09€ for PAYG offers in Germany. Sometimes even 0,19€.

Group chats just plain don't work in SMS.

Telegram, Signal and Whatsapp have tools for handling tens or hundreds of people in a group. (Telegram more than the others).

Also, everyone here has (near)unlimited data, so using a non-SMS communication tool is free. SMS have either a flat budget (1k SMS per month) or cost per message.

Oh, and sending pictures/videos over plain SMS is just horrible.

You are of course completely correct. I downplayed the network effect that drives the ability of these companies to say "screw you peon...accept whatever crap we shovel on you or your grandma's IMs get it".

And really, the network effect is the only one that really matters.

there is a weird UI thing too, I know people message or call me by whatsapp when they intended to use the phone or SMS.

probably something like the preferred network to talk to someone or something.

> Matrix is simply not accessible to anyone who isn't highly computer literate

I would have agreed about a year ago, but the reference implementations have been slowly and steadily improving, as have alternative Matrix clients. If I still had contacts who struggled with Element, I might look at (for example) FluffyChat.