Comparing Tesla, Ford and VW’s Electrical Architectures [video] | Hacker News Reader

Comparing Tesla, Ford and VW’s Electrical Architectures [video]

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78 pointsryzvonusef24 comments

I'm about halfway through, but this is actually quite interesting (the different trade-offs, both for modularity and or for simplicity vs. complexity).

The thing I find interesting is that no matter what your opinion on how things should be made, different vehicles "nail" it in different areas (e.g. the ID.4 having a simple four wire audio-system as opposed to an audio-network but also almost double the ECUs).

Either way this is super nerdy and I love it.

Absolutely. Love seeing these breakdowns...

When they were talking about pros/cons of fewer (but centralized) ECU's vs more ECU's (isolated, lower cost) I immediately thought of microservice architecture vs monolith.

> In this episode Sandy Munro sits down with the gentlemen from 3IS Inc. to discuss the differences between the electrical architectures of the Tesla Model Y, Ford Mach-E, and Volkswagen ID.4.

I am really disappointed with Sandy. While other guys are professional, Sandy to me seems too much biased. He was not like that. Sad.

Watching it now. How so?

I'm not a Tesla fanboy but I didn't think it was biased. E.g.:

Right off the bat he talks about the number of ECU[1] of Tesla compared to others. He points out that this will result in inferior quality due to the number of connections. A no-brainer with cascading effects which has many other advantages for Tesla[2]. Spelling this out will upset a lot of people because it's a valid attack that also knocks the other designs into a corner that makes one wonder what's the point of even continuing. (at least if one expects a ranking on quality etc - then there is no recovering from that).

The missing CAN-FD[3] bus-speed info on Tesla is interesting. It seems Tesla is doing it's own thing here with CAN-FD. Maybe a proprietary implementation (I couldn't make sense of it)?

The other connections like Ethernet, LIN etc are also much less and I'm assuming this can be attributed to simply having such a small number of ECU's too.

No idea what's going on with the missing OBD-II but I'd imagine if you want to roll out a proprietary after-market technology that can only be serviced at a Tesla shop then killing this makes sense in order to lock everyone in (customers but more relevant after-sales).

Tesla Y has no replaceable fuses, ... and it goes on ... and on ...

As a piston/gear-head who hates the brand, and strongly dislikes Musk it's a lot to digest and put up with. I don't understand though why the video is supposed to be biased or not accurate. It doesn't seem they're releasing any info that hasn't been floating around in various places.

[1] number of ECU's https://youtu.be/ZRkm6-bBk4U?t=178 and critique: https://youtu.be/ZRkm6-bBk4U?t=258

[2] https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Tesla-teardown-...

[3] https://youtu.be/ZRkm6-bBk4U?t=468

[4] zero replaceable fuses https://youtu.be/ZRkm6-bBk4U?t=932

I own a Tesla, but I'm not a fan-boy. I can appreciate how having fewer ECUs means, all other things being equal, it would be less failure prone. (But more expensive to replace a failed larger ECU than a failed smaller one). Tesla starting from scratch gives them a lot of advantages, not being tied to a specific legacy architecture or vendors. Again, assuming they actually do it right rather than bodge it :)

Sandy and the other experienced gentlemen in the video are welcome to strong opinions about one approach being better than another; it's not necessarily biased. Maybe you favor a "simpler" design, or maybe you favor one that's cheaper to repair, or uses a tried and true architecture, or more off-the-shelf components.

I actually just had a steering wheel module replaced in my Model 3 last week; the Park button had stopped working. Of course these kinds of things are electronic in virtually all modern vehicles.

He owns Tesla stock. Possibly also on Tesla’s payroll.

no he doesn't, seriously, why do people remember one thing but not the other?

He HAD Tesla stock, and sold it, he realized that Tesla was, to quote WSB, "mooning" and threw some money at it and made some profit, like a LOT of people who realized Tesla was going to "moon" when it was about to be added to the S&P500 did.

He saw an absolute obvious opportunity, threw some money at it, bought and sold, life goes on. It's not like he's a journalist, his main income comes from his Munro business.

When he has actual conflict of interest(NDA) he discloses and doesn't talk anymore.

You should watch some of his early Tesla reviews. He was pretty negative on them. It wasn't until he dove deep to really understand all of Tesla that he realized how well things are going.

He also put together recommendations for free for Musk to improve their manufacturing processes based on his research and tear downs. Good people.

I think the benefit of a standardized diagnostic connector (and the protocols that come with it) are well worth a few more grams.

Off-the-shelf data logging and diagnostic software is useful.

Off the shelf software probably isn't going to be very helpful with an electric drivetrain though.

(the diagnostics; if the car makes the data available to log that will probably work okay)

True for the drivetrain but a car these days is a lot more than the drivetrain. Those dozens of other ECUs mentioned are using the same diagnostic error codes and protocols as ICE models. Everything from intermittent overheating of electric windows to AC performance issues.

The most striking difference was the relay/fuse numbers on Tesla side being zero and requiring half the control boxes.

I understand Musk’s point on parts not being available now (then? Model 3) but I’d like to see a deep dive on 48v vs 12v.

Yeah, me too. I've been hearing about 48v (used to be 24v) for what feels like ages now. I only sort of "get it". Seems Tesla had a great opportunity to jump into 48v, more so than legacy automakers.

On the other hand, if they had done it and it caused a bunch of problems, you'd have another Model X falcon doors issue. Tesla just doing something "to be different", and paying the price for it.

> Tesla just doing something "to be different", and paying the price for it.

I own a Model Y, and there are absolutely things I wish they just keep the status-quo.

- Navigation / map data here in Tennessee is frankly awful. Much worse than Google Maps. Missing locations, wrong/inefficient routes is common.

- Turn signals. Infuriating, just stay up and down when engaged like every other turn signal.

- No windshield wiper physical control. Add it to one of the stocks. Using the touchscreen to control wipers is silly.

- No HUD. A optional HUD that displays: gear, speed, battery percent, and direction would be super useful and a missing feature from a $50k+ car.

What about the voice command “Turn on windshield wipers” ?

Unfortunately the turn signals thing is common. I think BMW started it in ~2006 with the E90 3 series. I have a 2011 X5 diesel that has the same infuriating 'stateless' turn signal stalk. It's not helped by the fact that most modern cars have turn signal indicator noises that are too quiet to be heard if you even have quiet music on, and, in most cars I drive, with the steering wheel setup where I want it, I can't see half the speedometer or the turn signal indicators. (not an issue with the Model 3/Y of course, but the indicators are off-center and small so it's even harder to see!) I've owned numerous cars where I can't see the turn signal indicators, but at least you can hear them and feel where the stalk is in most cars. The 'electronic' canceling function means you never quite know if the signal is still on or not.

Don't get me started on the Model 3 having red turn signal indicators on the rear; I spent close to a thousand dollars to swap my last car (a VW) to proper amber indicators. There's no good fix for the 3 yet, that I know of. (The Model Y is almost entirely amber I think, the early cars might have been red)

The windshield wiper physical control doesn't bother me anymore, but I got a relatively early production 3 in July 2018, and when winter rolled around here in the bay area, I found out how bad the early rain sensing software was. For the first November/December/January wet months, it was pretty common to have to hit the washer button to trigger a quick windshield wipe until you had time to fiddle with the touch screen. It seems pretty perfect now. (My x5 also has auto wipers, but they disable every time you turn off the car, and of course has a physical stalk and button).

No need for gear in the HUD on a current Tesla :) But yeah, I have a HUD in my other car, and it's great (again, because the speedometer is blocked by the steering wheel for me).

Excuse my ignorance, but what's the advantage of 48v vs 12v? I didn't hear them talk about it.

Less amps at the same power level, all the wires can be smaller.

I’ve read that data + power can share a wire at 48v, powered Ethernet.

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