Peloton recalling all treadmills after reports of injuries, one death
cnbc.com
cnbc.com
The commission in April simultaneously released a graphic video, captured by a home security camera, of a young boy being pulled under one of the Tread+ machines and struggling to free himself.
But Peloton pushed back on the recommended recall at the time, telling customers there was no reason to stop using its treadmills, so long as children and pets were kept out of the area while in use. The company had also recommended a key be used to lock the device after each workout.
The fight club defence.
Narrator: A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
Business woman on plane: Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?
Narrator: You wouldn't believe.
Business woman on plane: Which car company do you work for?
Narrator: A major one.
IIRC that was based on the ford pinto
Does anyone have any thoughts on that? I imagine that small cars are the most dangerous to be in, since they will stop more abruptly if they hit something, as opposed to something like a bus which will demolish almost anything in its way.
What an absolutely baffling strategy for them to have originally pursued in response.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Tylenol_murders#Johnso...
And it pays off to fight with them. Look at Elon Musk and his companies.
n=1 ... and you may be right in general.
Someone else here mentioned Tylenol, which is a good counter example. Aggressive and transparent moves in the direction of consumer safety can both save a company in a PR crisis, and actually turn it into a boon for brand good will and loyalty.
Tesla promised workers that they could stay home if they didn't feel comfortable breaking the law. Workers who stayed home then received termination notices.
Hundreds of people who returned to work at Tesla were then sickened by the disease.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/03/12/hundred...
Fighting with the NTSB has a bad look. Throwing shade on people who died using your product, is also a bad look.
2 people received notices. 10,000 people work at the plant.
This might be the single most shockingly and blatantly manipulative article I've read in a long time. Let me list the number of ways that The Post tried to obfuscate the truth.
1. They publish an article in June 2020 titled "Tesla gave workers permission to stay home rather than risk getting covid-19. Then it sent termination notices." The title is entirely disconnected from the body of the article - in the body they specify they are talking about 2 out of 10,000 people, but the title doesn't reflect that even in the slightest.
2. In March 2020, they publish another negative article about Tesla, in which they once again use a more outrageous and misleading language, citing their previous article but not linking to it so that nobody can actually catch the fact that we're talking about 2 out of 10,000 people.
Let me remind you that The Post is owned by Jeff Bezos, who is a sworn enemy of Elon Musk. And then the media complains that there's so much push back on their reporting?
- Elon's father claims in the mid-80s he bought a partial stake in an emerald mine in Zambia. There is no paper trail of this ownership, so we are taking his dad at his word here.
- Zambia was already independent at the time and in no way an apartheid state. The ruling party was ideologically socialist and African nationalist.
- This partial ownership of the mine obviously did not make Elon a super wealthy kid, as he moved to Canada for university, gradudated with $100K in student debt, and according to roommates and friends at the time, he was notoriously frugal.
So it seems like even if Elon's father is telling the truth here and the mine even existed, that wealth didn't seem to be significant enough to give Elon a huge boost when he came to North America.
There are definitely a ton of things to criticize Elon for, but I am not sure the emeralds is one of them.
Furthermore, Musk fled South Africa in order to avoid being conscripted into the apartheid SA army.
He’s a person with rough edges, but tieing him in with apartheid is a bit much.
“ On the eve of independence in 1964, 2 percent of Zambia’s 3.5 million people were white, but they controlled everything in a system resembling apartheid.”
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/04/23/black-white-zamb...
I’m saying Musk has a lineage of abusive behavior and was raised by those same people. It explains his exploitative and abusive behavior for workers.
I’m descended from an ethnic group that has done some bad things. Am I now a bad person?
For instance, are all Germans Nazis to you?
Let us not forget the Zambians, themselves foreign Bantu invaders who genocided the native Khoison population (but perhaps the Khoisons genocided who was there before them).
In fact, the Xhosa tribe (a Bantu tribe famous for the clicks in their language, and for producing Nelson Mandela) got those clicks from the Khoisan tribes (the original clickers) by committing a massive genocide and taking all their land. The linguist John McWhorter gives an explanation of how this happens in his Great Courses series.
You are not a bad person, and I never said Elon is a bad person
It's not apples to apples to compare those, and it implies a slippery slope
I’ve personally experienced this line of “ethnic expectations.” All it does is to put the target in a box marked “probably racist” for no other reason than the conditions of their birth.
Why do people think this? Because Elon Musk can tweets dumb memes? The size and scope of regulatory agencies has vastly increased over the years. And fines paid out are gigantic. Take banks for instance:
> Financial institutions have been hit with $10.4 billion in global fines and penalties related to anti-money laundering (AML), know your customer (KYC), data privacy, and MiFID (Markets in Financial Instruments Directive) regulations in 2020, bringing the total to $46.4 billion for those types of breaches since 2008.
https://www.complianceweek.com/surveys-and-benchmarking/repo...
For the size and scope of regulatory agencies to increase, their budgets would have to increase faster than inflation of wages in their relevant markets. We don't see that in finance (SEC) nor in technology (FCC). The regulators are paid comparative peanuts.
Here's a source that suggests SEC budget has increased 82% over 10 years
https://www.heritage.org/government-regulation/report/reform...
A 82% budget increase from 2008-2018. But only a 31% increase in employees since 2004. Markets have gotten much larger with many more trades over the same time period. Certainly technology helps handle the increase but there is an orders of magnitude difference between a 2004 market and a 2021 market.
Crypto is a good example. It didn't used to exist. SEC is the only US regulatory body for it.
I don't know what you mean by this. I googled SEC spending over time and found this well sourced article about spending. I understand that Heritage Foundation is a conservative think tank but why does citing something from there mean I'm not arguing in good faith? I'm missing something....
> A 82% budget increase from 2008-2018. But only a 31% increase in employees since 2004. Markets have gotten much larger with many more trades over the same time period. Certainly technology helps handle the increase but there is an orders of magnitude difference between a 2004 market and a 2021 market.
Your original claim was that they're underpaid or underfunded, which is just wrong. Their budgets have increased by more than the inflation rate. And you still don't provide any data to back up any of your other claims, instead you attack me for arguing in bad faith and claim it's not a big enough increase because you think it should be bigger because you know, crypto.
- These fines are dimes on the dollar compared to profits gained
- Regulators are comparatively underpaid, with the comparison point being workers in the regulated sector.
Goldman Sachs is a single firm that made $9.5B in profit in 2020 who has to pay a $2.9B fine over $1.6B in bribes paid with $2.7B of "misappropriated funds". A single firm paid nearly the entire SEC's budget ($1.75B 2020) just in bribes to foreign officials.
But sure, since the SEC's budget has increased by 82% since the housing market failed, they have all of the funds they need. Clearly we have a value difference here. The issue is not the facts at hand, it is our opinions on what they mean.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/goldman-sachs-charged-foreign...
What benefit has Musk or Tesla received from fighting with regulators? Whether it is spats over securities, unions, or safety it doesn't appear that any punishments handed to Musk or Tesla are lenient when compared with what others have received in similar circumstances. Meanwhile these fights have been a consistent drag on his and Tesla's public reputations. Like with most things Tesla, odds are the company would have been better off if Musk knew when to keep his mouth shut.
Same as Peloton.
Let's say there are two kinds of people. People who open Robinhood and buy shares at ask, and everyone else. As long as there are more of the former than the latter, and as long as those Robinhood users like spats, then obviously giant company CEOs will keep getting into them.
Buying at ask is as direct as it gets! You don't need this some complicated socioeconomic mechanical theory. It's so frustrating to hear about these indirect effects - how the news might cause an analyst to write something negative months later, that maybe some institution may trade on one month, that goes through a big committee... If many Robinhood users read Elon Musk tweets, open Robinhood, buy at ask, price goes up!
Like this is the same energy that got a lot of politicians elected these last few elections. The same energy that's making TikTok personalities real celebrities. VIPs have their hands almost directly on the levers of popularity contests nowadays, through social media and direct to consumer finance, e-commerce and subscription apps.
If your theory about regulation and capitalism and economics or whatever does not incorporate "more guys buy at ask than guys sell in spread," nowadays, it might not be wrong, but it's mediocre.
What are the alternatives? Limit orders set close to the current range or selling near-the-money puts over and over until you're eventually assigned.
Are you just saying that "there is no such thing as bad publicity" and that anytime Musk is in the news is good for the stock price? Because the original point from justapassenger was that "it pays off to fight with [regulators]" and not "it pays off to commit securities fraud".
The direct answer to your question is, since Robinhood users like those n-th order fights, he still got a benefit through the rising Tesla prices those Robinhood users caused.
But you're doing the thing where you're trying to make a model or a theory that starts stepping away from the direct mechanisms of action these people have now to affect stock prices.
I'm saying that a tweet from the Peloton CEO that just said "regulators are big doodoo heads" - if there are more Robinhood users who buy Peloton at ask than everyone else, and they like this tweet, the price will rise because that's how prices rise.
That's why you don't need a lawyer, you don't need the professional advice or the experts, if you're Elon Musk and your goal is to make stock prices rise.
What you're really trying to ask is, "When do smart people decide to stop being intellectually honest?" The answer is, as long as the intellectually honest text is longer than a short, simpler, stock-raising tweet with verisimilitude, people will choose short and high in verisimilitude over longer but true.
I give him enough credit and respect that I suspect he knows when, but just doesn't know how.
The SEC is the only financial regulatory body that is a real public institution. Isn't everything else just private corporations who only give the impression that they're public regulatory bodies?
Given Wall Street's lobbying power, the regulatory bodies for Wall Street has always been weak. I don't foresee this changing for the same reason.
The CPSC can issue a mandatory recall, but that's subject to challenge in court. They rarely do that. But if they do, it looks really bad for the seller. For one thing, it means the recall notice comes from the U.S. Government, not the seller, which looks really bad.
[1] https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/Statement%20of%20Acting%20C...
It’s particularly galling for Peloton, because their gear is already overpriced. Shouldn’t some of that cost go into making sure that it doesn’t rattle itself apart?
Edit: main safety issue doesn't seem to be the touchscreens actually
The push to the bottom impacts every single product/process, doesn't matter if the technology is well understood, there's always another penny to shave off the cost so manufacturer can make more profit.
Maybe the designers decided all the safety junk was too ugly?
lol, no
https://techcrunch.com/2021/05/05/peloton-bug-account-data-l...
No jail, no meaningful fines.
Fortunately the child was able to escape in this case, but it's pretty easy to see how people, and children in particular, could be injured or worse by these treadmills.
Excuse the pedantry, but I think this is the incorrect physical explanation. Larger rollers mean that the linear speed at the rim is larger, and the roller impart in fact less force (e.g. conservation of energy).
Does not mean it is less dangerous. It's just dangerous for different reasons than you state.
My thought is the larger roller surface area just made it better at grabbing stuff and sucking it under the unusually high deck height. Dunno if torque is the correct term.
A treadmill design using large rollers would have a chosen motor and gearing combination to accomodate the large rollers, likewise for one with small rollers. They would likely be able to impart the same force at the roller (or at least which one would be stronger is unknown and a function of other design variables).
I just watched a video that matches this description, and holy shit. The thing that unsettled me the most was the first moment, before the treadmill reversed direction for a second only to suck the kid back in. In that initial capture, the treadmill wedged itself against that kid's throat. Hard to tell for sure from the video, but if not for that momentary spin reversal, the kid would likely suffocate.
As a father of a similarly-aged kid, I can't stop shaking after seeing this.
It also takes money. But why bother protecting the consumer or even the company if you're not legally or financially liable yourself?
There's little incentive to do things right. And when there is, most people will only ever learn the hard way.
Sorry no. This implies that reviewing the negligent faults in this Design was a difficult task.
A basic Hazard and Risk analysis would have flagged this.
Even if we ignore the lack of safety guards, I struggle to believe that it is legal to release a consumer product with this much torque without some form of overcurrent/stall/speed detection and safety cut-off.
I agree that a hazard analysis should have identified it. But whether it did or didn't, there are still many possible reasons why it wasn't addressed effectively. Hence, a systemic failure.
I have no idea if it's legal, but any punishment would probably be on the company rather than the individuals.
I think the issue is not that they're old technology, but that gym equipment should not be shared in household rooms with children or pets. Really the entire category is just heavy as hell by design. Peloton’s whole shtick is normalizing gym equipment at home and they're doing it via silicon valley "move fast and break things" strategy, and here we are.
Same way that kids shouldn't be playing on a stove or dishwasher but it's still required to mount them so that if they DO it doesn't tip and crush them. Especially since the hazard isn't necessary for the operation of the device (such as spinning blades are necessary for table saws, etc).
That sounds completely impractical - good luck keeping a child out of a room. Perhaps the devices should be safer, rather than passing the buck from the company to the individuals?
It can be made safe. Lots of treadmills are relatively safe, barring slight pinch injuries. Peloton just made it this way for aesthetics and economics.
These fucking things could suck up a small dog and mangle the shit out if it if not downright spit back out pieces.
Imagine overpaying for a treadmill to begin with and it has a huge, possibly deadly design flaw.
Seriously, WTF.
Stick with your Precor treadmills people. Proven, cheaper and every bit as good.
I have never been on a treadmill that has a "rear guard".
How / what does Precor do to prevent this? (Beyond mostly existing in health clubs where small children and dogs are not allowed..)
Seen here: https://www.amazon.com/Precor-TRM-932i-Commercial-Treadmill/...
The roller/belt design also appears different - much smaller rollers and a smoother belt on Precor models. Not idea if that contributes, but it might.
Google treadmills and find a shot from behind the treadmill like you're walking up to use it. You'll be able to see the bar. Look at the Peloton treadmill and there isn't any bar. I can say that some cheap treadmills don't have this, but they lack the elevation and power a Peloton treadmill will have. Looking at the design, I can almost promise you they left it off for aesthetics, lots of treadmills are "boxy" because they provide a guard at floor level all the way around. Peloton's looks like an elevated tank tread, which is cool, but... no guards.
Yes, I see it on about half the pictures...
Interestingly, Peloton bought Precor, so ultimately you're still buying from the same company
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/peloton-completes-p...
Well.... I guess forget about what I said.
I said what I said cause my older Precor Treadmill is the tits.
It's pretty awesome and has a guard, but ... I guess it went down the shitter after selling to Peloton.
This seems like a really silly design choice
Anyway, their stock is down 10% but I think that's silly; I don't think anyone who was considering a PTON is going to not, now. Maybe their earnings will take a hit, but does retail even care about that anymore?
https://www.ikea.com/us/en/customer-service/product-support/....
About 125,000 units at $4,000 each plus the overhead costs of dealing with the whole issue. So $500 million just on the recall, not to mention the liability on any suits for existing injuries and deaths, the brand damage, the delay before they can sell a new product, the loss of content subscriptions from people who no longer have a unit... Those subscriptions are really where they planned on making money.
It's a good chunk of change. It's on the order of a six months to a year of revenue. Any company that suddenly loses a year of revenue is going to see a big hit.
Edit: Regarding shoe/pedal combinations. Sidi shoes if they will fit you otherwise I'd go with Specialized. The BOA fasteners are really good - crazy durable, easy, they stay, can be replaced etc. no downside except upfront cost maybe. I really like SPD pedals - Shimano XT in particular. The lower models have a plastic part that will wear and the bearings go sooner. XTR pedals cost a fortune for no durability gain and it's a spin bike so not going anywhere.
But yeah, my wife and I already had SPD shoes from doing spin together for awhile, so I bought pedals and never used the ones that came with the Peloton.
Top three brands off the top of my head:
1. Bontrager: Owned by Trek, and is the most common type of spin shoe used in studios. Will have something for all price ranges, and have been around for a while.
2. Specialized: More ubiquitous in the cycling world, a slight amount of paying for the brand, but will also have everything you need. Most popular cycling brand, especially on the high end.
3. Fizik: Personal favorite because they are better for high arches out of the box. Unlike the other two, these guys don't make bikes, just shoes and seats. And they do both extremely well.
I HIGHLY RECOMMEND going to a bike shop to buy the shoes and have the cleats fitted to your shoe in-person. This prevents injuries and improves results on the bike.
Pay for in-store once, take a silver sharpie, outline where the cleat is placed on the bottom of the shoe. Now you can replace the cleats for $20, and have a good idea of where to place them if/when you need a new pair of shoes.
If you have narrow or low-volume feet, the Italian brands might work best.
Having tried the Tread+, it was easily one of the best treadmills I’ve ever used that feels most like natural running.
Very much worth the price, even without the bike. The instructors are all great, and I don't stress about the quality of any class -> I just jump into one. They all are great.
I _do_ miss having feedback on my form from an in person instructor. But post pandemic I can do this sporadically and make peloton my everyday.
It's about $40 a month, which covers our family. My wife and I are fitness enthusiasts and this is more than offset by not having a gym membership or having to drive to exercise. We do have about $5K total in our home gym (rubber flooring, cable machine, dumbbells and benches etc.) For us being able to get quality classes and workout on our schedule offsets any added cost.
I don't know if the live classes would provide much value to me (I struggle to enjoy in person fitness classes too), but judging by the comments on here, I guess a lot of people do value them a great deal.
Gym quality delivered to your house. Weighs A LOT so only buy if you're pretty committed to your current domicile. It is solid and smooth. With Cosco, you get a bench included in the price that is less than other retailers for the exact same machine.
I surmise the injury rate using machines at comparable weights is almost certainly higher than with free weights. (Injury rates from free weight training is extremely low regardless, lower than almost any other sport.) The resulting adaptation is also, of course, far superior.
I agree completely about the advantages of free weights. Learning how to deadlift has been life-changing for me.
Also, hyping people up is hard, and building a dedicated audience is harder. They pay a lot because if the popular instructors leave, so will the users.
While I find that works well in a private class setting "Great job Brenda! You're really improving!" since hundreds, even thousands of people take Peloton classes, you have a very low chance of acknowledgement and the teacher spends a lot of time reading off "Congrats on the 100 rides spf100! Thanks for coming to my class WineGirl21231! 1000 rides for Luv2RideMan12!"
I don't own a Peloton, but I do spin classes, live online yoga classes and run and bike on my own. I will probably buy a Peloton if prices come down on the secondary market as the pandemic ends.
I was skeptical too at first, now you'll have to pry my Peloton bike from my dead cold hands. It's been a game changer for me.in terms of fitness.
The instructors are 1 part DJ, 1 part program designer, 1 part hype person, 1 part personality, 1 part community leader, etc...
Recorded videos work fine, all (I think) Peloton classes are available in the back catalog.
I'm pretty self motivated (I power lifted for years, which is a huge grind), but my cardio work has always been more intense and effective when instructor led.
At Peloton's scale, I imagine recordings would work just as well. But, the instructor does the same things. For live classes with smaller groups, there can be a lot of 1-on-1 interaction.
I use it along with the Peloton app ($13/mo).
https://www.keiser.com/fitness-equipment/cardio-training/m3i...
The cost seems high to a typical gym membership, but Peloton is competing with spin studios which are stupid expensive. If one considers the cost to be split between at least 2 family members, it's relatively cheap.
You touched on it, but the other types of classes are also very good. I've canceled my normal gym membership and am just slowly building out my home gym now.
Peloton is great if you want the "spinning" experience, but not as great if you're just a cardio junkie looking at getting a "riding your bike" experience, but indoors.
I would never buy any treadmill. They aren't super safe in general, and Peloton's treadmills are less safe than your average one.
I would definitely by a future weight machine or rower from them, but I have no interest in one of their treads.
I feel the social aspect is both the reason why I continue to ride but also really lacking. I have a group chat with friends who also have a Peloton and more often than not there's one or two that want to ride, so it's easy motivation to be like ok I'll jump on too. But also..it's difficult to actually follow friends and their progress as there's no real feed of any sort, just individual pages that you have to jump through a couple of menus to get to.
There are different hardware options like a regular bike on a trainer [0], or a smart bike like the Wattbike or Wahoo Kickr bike [1]. These use open standards and let you use different software, and if you use a regular bike on a trainer you can even use it outside when the weather permits.
The most popular cycling training software is Zwift, it's basically the de facto standard just like Strava by this point. But you don't have to use it.
[0] https://www.dcrainmaker.com/product-reviews/trainers
[1] https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/10/smart-shootout-wahookick...
Because they believe they are getting value through the some combination of equipment, exercise, leadership and community. It has worked for a long time, most recently with BeachBody, Peleton, and now Apple Fitness+.
When you take a minute to understand why it works, you can quibble about the cost, but there's no denying that the customers are happy with what they are buying. Nobody is bamboozled into these business models.
When I was younger and had more free time, I would tinker, too, content with my saving $20 there or $200 here, ignoring that the savings were a wash considering the time involved to find these discounts. These days sometimes I just pay extra knowing I'm not getting the best deal, but I'm getting something that works out of the box without me fiddling or having to spend my precious free time outside of work reading about the exciting exercise bike industry of all things.
Before the accident, we were very happy with both the bike and the treadmill. Now it's scary to think how dangerous they are given what we witnessed first-hand.
The fix seems so simple: a guard at the end of the tread that prevents things from being sucked under it. Kind of mind-numbing that this simple feature isn't included in such a high-end product.
(I'm not going for a 'blame the victim' attempt, I'm just trying to figure out what it is that Peloton was first trying to use as their defense before caving)
So if the network effects aren't there, what is the product? In my opinion it is a high quality, sturdy bike and recorded classes. But those aren't great differentiators anymore. Other brands like Nordictrack have high quality bikes as well, with cheaper subscriptions, some features Peloton doesn't have, and a better 'default' feature set if you turn off your subscription. Peloton may have a larger library of studio classes, but above a certain number having more classes does not really add any benefit. Peloton didn't seem to think the library size has much impact, when they casually removed many classes when they were sued for using music without rights (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/peloton-music-lawsuit-removing-...).
In my opinion, you are just as well off doing a home-built Peloton (https://www.cnet.com/health/fitness/diy-peloton-bike-how-to-...) or considering alternatives from Nordictrack (https://www.nordictrack.com/exercise-bikes/s22i-studio-bike) or Bowflex (https://www.bowflex.com/bikes/) or Echelon (https://echelonfit.com/products/connect-bike-ex-7s) or whatever.
I imagine a lot of contentious finger pointing between quality, product, and id happening right now.
Using it with Zwift on my Android Phone has been so much fun.
If I had the space, I would have purchased a Technogym treadmill also. World class stuff.
TechnoGym products are of such incredible high quality, that I thought I'd mention them.
Not all of us live in California. In huge parts of North America there is ice and snow on the ground for 3-6 months of the year and it's objectively unsafe to jog outside.
The second prank? It takes place in April, where the weather is unbelievably schizophrenic in Boston -- could be 60 and sunny, could be a blizzard, could be hailing sideways, could be pouring rain, could even be 80. Funnily enough 2020 and 2021 would have both been nice days.
2. I've never heard of the word "peloton" outside of this company until your post.
Or am I misinterpreting your question?
By the way, thanks for mentioning that the child wasn't injured. If I thought I was watching a child being hurt or killed, I don't think I could have watched it, but knowing beforehand that the children were not injured, I found it kind of hilarious.
Also, for all I know, it's possible that those threadmills have some safety properties which the Peloton threadmills don't. Is the belt less grippy, so that it would be easier to get out? Do the motors stop spinning when they get stuck? I don't know, but it doesn't seem too unlikely. I'd be interested to know.
With the hindsight they now have they probably also want to stop the treadmill as soon as it starts tilting. That requires a new sensor, but seems like a good case to catch.
Anywho,
>While Peloton doesn’t break out sales of its treadmills, Cowen & Co. had previously estimated that the Tread+ would represent about 2.2% of unit sales in 2021. That’s out of about 1.63 million stationary bikes and treadmills combined, it said.
That's going to be an expensive recall. I wonder if they'll come out ahead on these ~~bikes~~treadmills or if it would have been worth it to design them more thoughtfully in the first place.
All of the cited accidents would be impossible if people had taken the 4 seconds required to remove the security key. It's tragic that children died, but entirely preventable.
There's a reason every treadmill on the planet that you can purchase has on the very first page of the manual that you need to keep children and animals away from it while it's in use, and to remove the security key when it's not in use.
I challenge those of you downvoting away to show me how this accident would have occurred if the parent(s) in question had removed the safety key.
I also challenge you to find me a treadmill that wouldn't react in the exact same fashion if you jammed an exercise ball into the back of it. Here's a hint: none of them stop. The force of you striking the treadmill while running is greater than the resistance of a treadmill pulling on that ball. I expected better than twitter reactionism out of HN.
And for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNlX4VaN2bU
https://www.kidspot.com.au/parenting/real-life/in-the-news/t...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNlX4VaN2bU
Which, again, is why there's a magnetic safety key that takes seconds to remove so that something like this doesn't happen.
This goes right back to my "designing for the real world" point. If you are designing and selling a "at home" treadmill, you have different use cases, risks, concerns than designing one for a gym.
You shouldn't get to excuse safety incidents with "well we wrote it in the manual, it's not our fault, it's on the user". If your users are not actually following the safety precautions you expect, then you clearly did not engineer your product for the real world (which, frankly, is part of the definition of engineering).
With any mass-produced product, you have to assume that your users will not all follow the exact directions. This is the difference between your theoretical user, and your real-world usage.
As far as I know, it's not impossible to design a treadmill that would stop even if the "safety key" is still in. Maybe if it's facing significant resistance, but there is no downward weight on the device? Doesn't really seem like a valid situation for a treadmill, so it should stop. If you want to say "well it doesn't have sensors to detect that!", then maybe it should.
That is just the first thought off the top of my head; I am not a treadmill designer. I would expect people who are full-time treadmill designers to be able to come up with some better solutions.
> I also challenge you to find me a treadmill that wouldn't react in the exact same fashion
Your point may be valid here, but claiming "all treadmills are unsafe, so making unsafe treadmills is perfectly okay and we shouldn't expect any better from a $25B company" is a shitty attitude.
So instead, we just don't let small children handle them, because that would be dangerous. Just like we make safety mechanisms for treadmills so children can't hurt themselves, but when adults refuse to use those safety mechanisms children can get hurt. And the list goes on:
Bathtubs. Wall outlets. Plastic bags. Guns. Large animals. Small magnets. Cleaning chemicals.
I assume you've got a fix for making all of those safe for children in a way that doesn't require an adult?
You've seriously never heard of the term 'safety razor'? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_razor
Now, they're still not things that you would give to a child, but the point is, we don't just throw our hands up and say 'razors will never be safe, why bother?' but instead, we try to make them safer. Doing nothing because we can never achieve perfect safety is reckless and uncaring.
A safety treadmill would--instead of sucking a child underneath and pinning them--give them a friction burn or pinch their arm.
It's a guard. Add a guard around the roller and you eliminate this scenario.
You are taking something that is fundamentally not-safe as a function of what it is, and the job it needs to perform. With out current level of technology, there is no practical way to make a single razor blade "safe" by your definition. There are fundamental, global safety issues (sharp things are sharp, corrosive chemicals are corrosive) that are impossible to avoid, because the safety-issue is tied directly to the fundamental function.
There is absolutely no fundamental function of a treadmill that requires the ability to kill a small child.
Are you claiming that it is fundamentally impossible to make a treadmill that is safer?
For what it's worth, there are attempts to make even-dangerous-things less dangerous, by limiting the danger. Instead of full-sized razors, you get little razors already embedded in a plastic casing. You engineer cleaning products that are household-acceptable and less-poisonous.
Just because there is some object out that there is not safe, does not mean that other things shouldn't be made safer when possible. Safety-precautions and safe engineering is not an all-or-nothing thing that has to be 100% across the whole world.
> So what's your fix?
You attempting to make solving all of the worlds safety problems my problem is bullshit. I explicitly stated that treadmill engineering is NOT my job.
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PS. Don't even try to compare gun safety to treadmill safety. As far as I know there isn't a National Treadmill Association trying to make Treadmills as accessible as possible and actively pushing back against any safety initiatives.
This is the most bullshit, side-lining, "attempt to distract from the actual issue" argument that I've ever seen on this site. And that's saying something.
A plastic bag is fundamentally not-safe?
>You attempting to make solving all of the worlds safety problems my problem is bullshit. I explicitly stated that treadmill engineering is NOT my job.
And yet you have no issue claiming despite the fact NO treadmill manufacturer has been able to come up with a fix, that they should be able to. So "this is an easy problem but I have no idea what the solution is".
And for the record, the death happened while the treadmill was in proper use, so while it's true some of these accidents may have been prevented by removing the safety key, not all of them would have.
I have a child. I remove the safety key when I'm not using the treadmill. I am not 100% attentive at all times and I don't need to be. It is not ridiculous to expect a parent to take basic measure to protect their child from dangerous objects around the house. Knives are placed out of reach. Chemicals are in a locked cabinet. The treadmill has the safety key removed.
>And for the record, the death happened while the treadmill was in proper use, so while it's true some of these accidents may have been prevented by removing the safety key, not all of them would have.
Citation? The CSPC has yet to release any details that I've seen.
We wouldn't need warnings on coffee cups if people would just stop holding hot coffee in their lap.
And on and on. People make mistakes. People are lazy. People do unanticipated things that designers didn't consider. We shouldn't allow toddlers to die because people aren't perfect.
- Would either either a recall or an offer of free child-safety package be a nice brand-repairing option? yes. - Should we regulate the industry for one company's lack thereof? no.
I must be getting old. All I could think when reading this thread was, "This is why we can't have nice things". What if you want to buy an aesthetically (maybe even functionally) pleasing, but unsafe-if-misused device? Why must we optimize for child safety, when a modicum of awareness/prevention and/or training would suffice?
A better comparison than razor blades: motorcycles. In most states, if a child isn't required to be in a safety seat, they aren't prohibited from being a motorcycle passenger - despite it being statistically less safe than any car.
The tread was released in 2019. The CSPC reported 30 deaths from 2017-2019 from treadmills, none of which we peloton (I've yet to be able to find details beyond that on those deaths) - so to say this is a Peloton problem is not accurate or even a little bit fair.