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Comment by newacct583 | Hacker News Reader

We don't know the context, but as to your second item... when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial?

I know what you're really saying, which is that people on the right feel persecuted by being implicitly accused of being racists. And... y'know, that's fair. Probably 90% of the time in arguments like this that's an unfounded accusation made in bad faith just to score points.

But still... the treatment is to point out that, yes, you guys might disagree with us woke hippies politically but you're still on the light side of the force and care about the same basic morality so of course you denounce white supremacy. Right?

What's horrifying to us hippies is the extent to which so many of you simply won't, and want to turn it around into an argument instead. But you do, right? Denounce white supremacy? If your coworker demanded it, you might roll your eyes a bit but you'd do it? Right?

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I think demanding someone denounce white supremacy on demand seems kafkaesque.

You're only asked if you're perceived to have done or said something someone else thinks wrong...

"when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial"

I don't know what you mean by that, and i honestly don't understand who "you guys" are or the rest of your premise.

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

It's a loaded question, with no right answer. According to the article, the same speaker claimed that there was a culture of white supremacy at the company. There were demands to stop 'protecting' an exec who had expressed conservative views in the past.

Do you now or have you ever had sympathy for the positions of the communist party?

Well, do I mean the position that anybody who disagrees with the leadership should be sent to the gulag, or do I mean progressive taxation? Sorry, it's not clear--now answer quickly, before you're judged on your hesitation! Anything you say may be enthusiastically used against you in future discussions! Are you a racist, or do you admit here in public that this company has a racist culture?!

It's especially troublesome for a wife-beater that wants to stay in power.

People in power do all sorts of stuff, to stay in power and keep others down.

And people who seeking power do all sorts of stuff to gain it, including asking trap questions with no right answer and using the result as leverage to push people out of leadership positions.

> when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial?

I'm old and never in my life have I ever been asked to denounce white supremacy. If someone asked me to denounce it, I'd be insulted that they asked. There's some serious implications behind asking someone that question that I hope would never apply to me.

I think people's defensiveness can get in the way of empathy.

I would be somewhat dismayed if someone asked me to denounce white supremacy, because I would hope that it would be obvious that I abhor white supremacy.

I don't think I'd be insulted, though--and certainly not to the level of refusing to do any denouncing. Of course it's wrong! Hope to live in a world where it goes without saying. Until then, happy to repeat as often as anyone cares to hear it.

Some people will never be happy, but will happily tear everyone down. They will never mature to grow out of resentment and forgive.

It's way harder though as long as injustice is perpetuated.

So it's nuanced.

and if someone is being defensive it’s extremely likely that they were approached or engaged with an equal lack of empathy, the obvious one being starting out with any assumption based on their skin color, it then risks becoming a Kafka trap, which is when you claim someone denying something is evidence of it actually being true

I don’t understand how white supremacy even comes up as a topic at a company that makes business collaboration software. Maybe I’m lucky but I’ve been in the industry for over 20 years, and it’s never come up as a topic of work discussion. Vi vs emacs? Yup. Debugging techniques? Sure. Linux vs Windows? Many times. White supremacy??? I can’t think of a single moment where that would have been on-topic for any tech job I’ve ever done. What on Earth kind of software are you all working on?

It probably came up because of the "funny" internal names they were giving to customers, some of them being in Asia and Africa. While some may view that as harmless fun, others might see it as mocking/insulting. Maybe it's a valid question whether the names came from wanting to feel superior.

If my wife told me the neighbors got a BMW, I could reply that "Huh, their bank is going to lose all their money", mocking them to make myself feel better after seeing that I'm not that well-off to be able to buy such a car. IMO it would be an attempt by me to gain some superiority...

I would be shocked if anyone was being racist or thinking themselves superior by making a list of funny sounding names that made them laugh. It’s just a coincidence that the funny names would possibly be a specific race. This seems obvious given the fact that the names were chosen for being funny not because they were names belonging to specific races. Any name that didn’t sound funny yet was a person of another race didn’t likely make it to the list… unless they specifically had a list of “non-white people using white sounding names”, etc.

> But you do, right? Denounce white supremacy? If your coworker demanded it, you might roll your eyes a bit but you'd do it? Right?

Bullying people creates enemies, not allies. They might not be a white supremacist but they would not denounce them either because you are being so annoying.

As a counter example, lets say someone comes to you in the middle of your work and demand you denounce black crime. Would you do it? Black crime is bad, right? Why wouldn't you denounce black crime, are you pro crime? That can't be true, can it, why can't you just denounce it? Its just a few words, simple right?

Now, you would likely just see that guy as an annoying racist rather than someone who wants law and order. Now from that perspective take a look at yourself and see how people see you when you try to force random people to denounce white supremacy.

The hordes going around asking you to "denouce white supremacism" isn't anything to do with white supremacy, it's a power play to subvert. Again, it helps to reverse the roles here to see how idiotic this is: imagine someone going into a black neighbourhood asking regular people to denounce gang violence.

you think they would resist denouncing it, despite the racism in that question?

Of course they would and they should, much like I would tell someone asking me to denounce white supremacy to f-off despite me being white.

> Denounce white supremacy? If your coworker demanded it, you might roll your eyes a bit but you'd do it? Right?

Would you though? Having a co-worker insist that you denounce white supremacy says far more about the co-worker than any refusal to play their little games says about you.

> when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial

White people existing is not "white supremacy".

White people existing in positions of power is also not "white supremacy".

"White supremacy" is an ideology that declares the White race as genetically superior. (Yes, I know the left tries to shift this as it sees convenient.)

Claiming that Basecamp has a problem with "white supremacy" would be a blatant lie.

Watch out, I get the feeling that "white supremacy" now also means other things. Remember we're all expected to be up-to-date on the latest definitions of Words To Describe The Bad People.

Demanding you denounce a minority population is how we got into this problem in the first place.

Don't you see you are creating white supremacy by demanding everyone persecute it? You create the demand.

That's an interesting perspective which I had not considered before. There are certainly plenty of people out there desperate to sit in opposition to mainstream culture, not merely to be arbitrarily contrarian, but because they enjoy the feeling of being hated. The fire-hose of scorn and derision maintained by such rote denouncements might attract them to the idea like moths to a flame.

I don't think it's going to increase demand by persecution.

Maybe if being racist becomes the new underground lifestyle like being goth, etc.

This basically does happen. For it to not happen, people would have to universally be ok with prejudice toward them based on their skin colour, and that's obviously not true. A certain percentage of them will develop more hostile beliefs toward people who they feel are persecuting them.

> We don't know the context, but as to your second item... when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial?

We do know the context. It was in the article. And without taking sides on this issue, just to clarify - the original question "debated" wasn't an ask to denounce white supremacy, it was the question of whether "we live in a white supremacist culture" and whether "white supremacy exists at basecamp", which are both very different from blanket denouncing white supremacy.

(And just to be super clear - this did lead to being asked to denounce white supremacy, and I get the impression the employees considered the response to this request inadequate, though in follow ups Jason did denounce white supremacy. I think the context of when/how this was asked is important, and luckily we do have it.)

The most typical reason people don't like to answer that question is because they believe it is as setup for a followup:

"Then why aren't you doing X?!" where X in this case could be "Fire this person", "Setup a committee overseeing all hires", "Commit to quotas", "Donate money to this cause."

Also reminds me of this "Yes Prime Minister" skit about leading questions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA

Actually, an even more obvious reason that I missed:

Politics have become so tribal, that even simple sentences no longer mean what they mean at face value. Instead, they more often signal membership in a group who holds a certain bundle of beliefs.

Do you think human lives matter...as in...all of them? Do you think men should have basic rights...as in...mens rights?

Did you cringe a little at the last few words of those sentences? Even though at face value, they are very agreeable sentences? I think similarly, middle/right leaning people who aren't actually racist, think that parroting a political phrase on demand at work, is signaling a bunch of other "bundled ideologies" that they don't want to be a part of.

> But you do, right? Denounce white supremacy?

Sure, if the other party apologies to me (a Slav) first for their bigotry, racism, and slaver history.

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