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Comment by kgwxd | Hacker News Reader

You can't really buy a "dumb" gas car anymore either. I'm holding onto my 2011 Nissan Versa to the bitter end.

Same here with my '93 Saab. I replaced the smart (for its time) HVAC control system with an Arduino running software I wrote, but otherwise it's bone stock.

I'd love an electric too, but the way I figure it, continuing to use a fairly efficient vehicle that already exists is probably better for the environment than buying something new anyway. It takes a lot of resources and material to build a car.

The problem with older cars, is that safety standards have improved dramatically in that time. So while you might have a "dumb" car that isn't spying on you, in the event of an crash, you are going to be much more likely to be injured. If I had to weigh being spied on with being injured, I'd guess the odds of being injured actually impacting my life negatively as greatly higher.

I do miss my old Saab though...

"Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither," as the saying goes, and these recent years that saying has gotten quite a bit more meaningful, I think.

From now on, you only get to pull that quote out if you make literally no compromises to your freedom for the sake of security. Lock your car doors, thus making yourself less free to open them in favor of a bit of security? Run a firewall on your server, reducing your freedom to connect frictionlessly however you like in favor of that also being true of others?

Car wrecks are a safety concern not security.

That phrase originally had the opposite meaning: https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famou...

> It is a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security.

That's not the correct quote, you're missing two key modifiers. It's "essential liberty" for "temporary security"... which is not the case here.

What about when the data is collected from all the spying and used to deny your claim?

Can you share more of the Arduino HVAC setup, possibly even the code and the wiring? I married into a family of classic-Saab-lovers and am curious.

That sounds very interesting. I don't own a Saab but I'd still like to see a write-up on your project.

I haven't written anything up for it yet, but I've been thinking about a hackaday post. Ideally I'd like to integrate the other chassis electronic systems at some point too – lights, radio, ignition, pretty much everything but engine management. Then you could add support for a yubikey or something before it would start, but it already has a manual transmission to that's probably sufficient antitheft these days.

[Very relevant BlipShift t-shirt I saw today](https://www.blipshift.com/products/enable-2fa)

Your Versa isn't exactly dumb either. It's younger than the iPhone.

You mean older?

A 2011 Versa is younger than the iPhone which launched in 2007.

You can still buy a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser J70 in 2021. Even though it will be newer than the iPhone 12, it won't spy on you -- because it was designed in 1984.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Land_Cruiser_(J70)

Mechanical design of original platform does NOT limit the OEMs ability to install telecommunications modules and other upgraded electronic.

Unfortunately, only in Australia and parts of Africa and a few other select markets.

I've been trying to buy a new J70, but AFAICT you can't buy a new one in the EU or US, and it's practically impossible to import one either. I'd be very happy to be corrected.

The 25 year rule sucks

You can buy dumb cars, they just won't be new cars.

I don't expect that to be financially viable too long into the future. Once a significant enough portion of the general public's fleet turns over you can expect to see onerous requirements applied to older vehicles to get people at the margins to buy newer stuff (e.g. inspection programs that drive up the cost of ownership under the guise of safety, some states already have these). Insurance lobby wants people in new cars. The Karens don't like seeing old junk. The upper middle class wants everyone driving EVs for the planet's sake. The state wants to be able to track everything. None of these parties care that most of the people affected will have credit scores in the 400s and be forced to do business with predatory "buy here pay here" lots.

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