What I Learned Buying a Rug in Turkey | Hacker News Reader

What I Learned Buying a Rug in Turkey

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110 pointsmarkbao64 comments

Look at the weave, this is how you can tell it is not machine made.

I hope he didn't believe that. Turkey is full of fake. People don't have a continuous relationship with the seller, so the seller focuses on selling something that looks great. For fruit and vegetables, this isn't much of an issue (What You Taste Is What You Get), but I struggled to find a bike. All bells and whistle, no quality.

That's the positive side of megabrands and chain-stores, they have reputations and standards.

I was surprised by how social haggling was in Turkey. As far as I can tell, a lot of sellers do not lower the price because you're going to leave the transaction (i.e.: the rational way); they lower it because they want to feel good about themselves. Typically, college students get better prices that way. Foreigners can get either royally screwed, or offered a free meal at a restaurant. Turks want to think of themselves as being great hosts (and they are).

I tried a few times to tell a merchant: I can get a better price elsewhere. Even if it was true, they didn't care.

We went to a high-end restaurant last week. 6 foreigners, some obviously older and well-off, and one Turkish girl. We sit, start eating, then want to order wine. She haggled. And won. I still don't get it. Presumably, the reputation of the restaurant was at stake. It'd be rationally selfish, but still. Foreigners are not coming back!

The requirement to haggle in so many situations has some unfortunate day-to-day consequences. Some Turks become used to lying under all circumstances. (though to be fair, I got some of my best relationships ever here)

Last anecdote: some cafe manager told me he has trouble finding personel. They pay an employee 1.50$ / hour (1$ if you're unexperienced, no joke) in my city. The price of a beer might be around 2.50$. The ratio is much worse than in the Western world, so I ask him, why don't you increase the pay? Nuh-uh, he said. Things don't work that way around here.

I must confess that I very much hate bargaining. I can't overcome the feeling that the other person tries to steal my money, and now I have to be careful and defend myself to reduce the damage. Then, I will end up with a stuff I don't really need.

Regarding the Turkey story, I just would not follow the man no matter what. I can't help, but persuasion doesn't work on me - the more other person tries to persuade me, the less likely I will buy anything.

Everything is a bargain. If the price is set by the company it's because they've already researched the most effective way to take everyone's money instead of just focusing on you.

Agreed

Pretty much everything is open to bargaining, it's just a matter of whether it's worth your time. If you don't bargain, you are automatically allowing the other person to steal your money. You bet I bargained when I bought my house, when I bought my car.

I've seen bargaining even in department stores, a woman haggling down the price of Coach bags in Macy's by offering to buy several at once. She got the discount.

Just like you, I don't like being sold to, but I have no problem bargaining for something that I seek out myself. In Thailand and India I bargained for clothes, for my backpack, for cab fare, for souvenirs. It was not adversarial at all, and often both me and the merchant was having fun, trying to read each other's minds, pushing and retreating, biding our time. In a way it's kind of like dating =)

In a way it's kind of like dating

You mean, if you're not careful about how you do it, you might end up screwed and coming home with something that you didn't want? :)

(sorry, had to be said)

Of course. No risk, no reward. No guts, no glory.

Bargaining is a frictional cost, and is best avoided for anything except the very large ticket items.

Yes, the seller and the buyer both want the best price they can get on any given transaction. However, the time and energy required to get that price through haggling are often worth far more than the difference in purchase price. When buying or selling a house, I'll haggle, but I don't want to waste my life haggling over each rug.

I suspect that as Turkey develops economically, most people there won't want to, either. Here in Taiwan, this sort bargaining is far, far less common than it used to be.

I see this more of a lesson in persistence paying off, and understanding your client, their needs, how to predict and answer their questions, and behave to sell effectively (in this case usage of the environment) - things any entrepreneur in any business needs to know.

Yes, it is a social hack and manipulation to an extent (I don’t agree with bringing the kids in etc., that is low), but these are the same lessons and issues found in most business (merchant wants as much as he can get, client is often reluctant to buy until they see the benefits to them, and in order to reach a deal there is often much bartering and negotiations to be had).

Are some of the people we meet and network with, especially in business conferences and trade-shows, any different? Are price negotiations between the companies we interact with any different?

Simply put, the rug sellers understand what they are selling, what people are willing to pay, and how to sell it to them, and these are things all people in business should know. If win-win can be achieved (client thinks they are getting a bargain and seller is happy with sale price) then all the better. If you buy a rug, are happy with the rug, are happy with the price, what is the problem?

It is really market competition, and in many cases desperation, that is the root of the unethical behaviour. I do not agree with using pressure tactics, misleading "consultative" selling (was what he was teaching them about rugs true or was it tailored to his needs?), inferior goods supplied ("bait-and-switch"), or the multitude of other things that occur. But I see similar behaviour occurring in many high pressure environments, especially in the financial services sector (some stock brokers come to mind).

+1 to you sir. The author did not think that he was conned or purchased an inferior product or paid too much or even purchased something unnecessary. This is a success story of how to sell a luxury item that both parties agree was an unnecessary item, with the customer being actually satisfied at the end.

The magic of the Turkish Carpet isn't about closing the sale, it's about the sale process accumulating in the fact that you feel good that you've made the purchase. The entire process was really all about the customer receiving attention, trivia, entertainment and respect -- these are all added values to the end product.

A lot of web apps are completely unnecessary : what can we learn from these guys to sell well made but unnecessary stuff?

I absolutely hate bargaining like this, and countries where you're hounded and hassled to buy things without price tags on. For me, it's an education on how not to do business. It's quite like spam email.

Unfortunately this system just doesn't work with me. I'm less likely to go in a shop with no price tags on, because then I know I'll have to ask the shopkeeper the price of everything. It's inefficient. I guess if you grow up with the haggling you develop strategies for coping maybe, but I'm so glad to not be in a country where you have to deal with all that.

I agree that bargaining is inefficient for small transactions but it is the basis of business, everywhere in the world, regardless of whether or not there are price tags.

Ah yes, but that's thanks to the absence of information. And technology (internet especially) are filling in the missing info, and putting the middle men, a.k.a those who bargain, out of business.

The railroads did exactly the same thing with other middle men. In general, that is how markets become more efficient, by putting hagglers out of business.

Being informed improves your ability to bargain, it doesn't negate the need for bargaining.

I had some similar experiences in Morocco; going to a bargaining country is a great education. An example of the kind of social hack they use is that if they offer a tourist their hand, the tourist feels compelled to shake it. One guy used this trick, then used the beat of inaction to wrap a snake around my friend's neck. She was understandably startled, and while she was standing there confused, he pulled out some other snakes and draped them on her arms. It took about thirty seconds to disentangle her, at which point the man said "pay me".

This kind of trick can evoke some powerful negative emotions. A friend was somehow tricked into allowing a hawker to start tying an intricate string bracelet using his finger as the base. His finger was stuck in the knot, and the guy ignored my friend's requests to be let go. It ended with quite a lot of shouting.

A friend was somehow tricked into allowing a hawker to start tying an intricate string bracelet using his finger as the base. His finger was stuck in the knot, and the guy ignored my friend's requests to be let go. It ended with quite a lot of shouting.

Oh yeah, some African guys in France tried that one on me. The best response I managed was to look 'em dead in the eye, and say "Sorry, I don't speak English". That'll confuse 'em for long enough to get away.

I love French street-people. A beggar cornered me and politely asked for money. I responded, "Je suis desole. Je ne parle pas francaise."

"MONEY," he shouts. "I want money!"

That was, predictably, ineffective.

in the uk, kids will come up to you with puppy-dog eyes and just hold out their hands. i was at a bus stop and a 10-year-old in designer clothes came up to me. i laughed and told him i wasn't giving money to someone dressed in nicer clothes than i was. he didn't budge. then i told him i didn't have any cash on me (all i had was traveler's checks at that point, plus bus fare). he didn't budge. finally, i reached in my pocket and pulled out all the change i had--probably about 20p. i dropped it in his hand and said, "ok ok, you got me." he looked at the money with disdain, dropped it on the ground, and put his hand out again. by that time, the bus had arrived, so i was able to end the interaction, but talk about persistence (stupidity? stubbornness? many words apply.). i sometimes wonder how long he would have stood there had the bus not arrived when it did.

I had a guy start something like this in Rome recently. I reacted so strongly to being touched by a stranger selling stuff that the guy called me names. I guess I'm just not used to personal contact except handshake.

In some countries, it is not unusual for male friends (heterosexual friends) to sometimes hold hands when they walk

In my experience, Rome isn't one of those places.

In Rome I would worry about someone touching me - it is a common tool of distraction by the pickpockets there.

There were street vendors/con artists like that running around in Fiji when I visited--asking your name, carving it onto a painted, balsa-wood knife-thingie, going on at length about how their kids were going to starve if you didn't fork over at least $20. Luckily, my co-workers ran into 'em first, so I was forewarned and forearmed. I pulled all but $3 from my wallet and folded it up in another pocket before hitting the street, and when the inevitable vendor approached me, I got the Fiji keepsake for about what it was worth to me, no social pressure involved (and he wasn't shy about looking into my wallet when I claimed I only had $3 on me).

There is also perceptual contrast. By explaining that the rug is worth $3000, it makes $1100 look very cheap.

Turkey is nice, been a few times. You really need to become immune from this kind of thing, or at least play them at their own game. If they say 100 euros, you say 20 and agree on 40. Seriously - they are there to rip you off and would sell anything for any price if they thought they had got you to pay more than you first wanted to. :)

In India I once hailed an auto rickshaw and had him take me about half a kilometer in the rain. I asked him in American-accented English what the fare was, and he said 200 rupees. I started yelling at him in perfect Bengali that I wasn't born yesterday even though I am a foreigner, and that I spend a lot of time in India. He countered with an offer of 10 rupees, and I gave him 20 because I was laughing so hard. The sad thing is I know that the 200 rupees must work on some people.

How did you know that he spoke Bengali?

He was in Calcutta...

It would probably work on me. What is that.. like $4?

$5.

It's not that "they are there to rip you off", they also enjoy bargaining tremendously. Most of them would much rather haggle to 20% the original price then just get the money, an probably feel dissapointed by the tourists who either pay or walk away. It's simply a bit of culture shock.

My girlfriend recently spent a few weeks in China, and related some of the same stories. She figured out the process pretty quick: it's not quite that the people she encountered enjoyed haggling, it's just what they're used to. Haggling successfully to a low price gets you respect from the seller.

It is a completely foreign concept to Americans, who tend to come away with this feeling that either they've just been ripped off, or they just ripped off the seller.

I don't think I would handle it well at all (partly because I'm not fond of buying trinkets anyway).

I think the people who enjoy it are the people buying, not selling.

I was recently in Taiwan with some locals, and everything we did was discounted. It seemed awkward bargaining at a 4-5 star hotel - but we ended up paying about half by paying cash in advance.

Obvious link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n3LL338aGA

If you are interested in some light reading on the topic of influence and negotiation, I definitely recommend reading the book that the author references. It's titled Influence: The psychology of persuasion by Robert Cialdini.

While the principles discussed are pretty simple (they were all named in the article), Cialdini explains them very well. They are immediately applicable and will definitely be useful for anyone needing to influence/manage other people.

I quickly tire of this kind of bargaining, particularly because most sellers' 'friendliness' invariably turns to anything between indifference and hostility as soon as they understand that you are wise to their game and they will not make the tourist premium off of you. On more than one occasion in Turkey, sellers have abused me just because I refused to budge from a price I knew was reasonable (which I had gotten in other shops).

At least this is true for tourist destinations. I've had more enjoyable experiences off the beaten tourist path in South East Asia. Generally though, in the long run it grows tiring to have to spend twenty minutes negotiating every time you go in a shop.

The book mentioned by Cialdini was one of my favorite reads of last year. It just melts away and before you know it; you finished it.

By the end, have you bought 3 more books, the training tapes, and a lifetime subscription to his newsletter?

I read the same book. It was compulsory for a management class I was doing.

A lot of people rave about how great it is, but personally I couldn't quite overcome the niggling voice of shame in the back of my head that said "You're reading a self-help book".

I felt dirty afterwards, and I stored the book in a drawer rather than on my bookshelf. It's probably not really a bad book, though.

Why feel shame at reading a book which improves your skills? Would you feel shame after reading a startup self-help book such as "Getting Real"?

I think it's a techie thing. I took a course at work about influence and negotiation and the reaction of some people I was talking to (a few scientists) was "oh, you're taking that class on manipulating people!" complete with rolled eyeballs. Actually of all the classes I've taken at work, that was one of the most useful.

The answer to that is obviously: Yes, I prefer to know when and how I'm being manipulated, rather than walk around being blind to my strings being pulled.

I've come across the same reaction amongst my techie friends as well. I don't understand why so many smart people have such a big blindspot about this issue.

Sigh! There is a huge difference between manipulating someone and negotiating to get what you want. The first implies control, generally without their consent. The latter is all about understanding their needs (which are often emotional and may require asking probing questions, reading body language, making that person comfortable etc) and finding out how you can come to a consensus that satisfies both parties.

The problem I was alluding to is that technical people seem to think that using anything other than cold, hard facts to come to terms is "manipulative." And quite simply, the world doesn't work that way.

[edit] Now that I re-read your reply, I think I took it completely the wrong way :-) Sorry.

I read this book 12 years ago and it changed my perception of most interacations with sales/service people. His stories of working as a busboy to watch the high performing waiters and what he learned was worth the price, alone.

The book he mentions explains why Facebook and social networking sites work as well as they do. Have you ever wondered why Facebook never invites you to be friends with someone, its always "Your friend thinks you might know.." Just the tiny change from saying "You might know..." to "Your friend thinks you might know..." makes a huge difference. I encourage anyone to read the book, because it has huge implications for marketing and start-ups. It explains a lot of why things work the way they do, why people like Apple, why people are encouraged to buy, or discouraged. Its a dry read, but invaluable.

It will even tell you how to monetize Twitter... :)

My friend had a similar experience in india. I wonder how the same kind of soft well approach could be applied to startups? Perhaps by making sure you provide value for people with no pressure to buy? The methodology sure seems to work.

I think application of this into a startup is all about interaction. How can a company passionately (read: more then just newsletter drips) interact with their users after they have signed up for the freeby but maybe aren't quite ready to pay? Even with the "free plan with hopes of people upgrading to pay" model so popular these days, conversion rates still seem too low to me. Users sign up for the freeby but then instead of diving into an engaged relationship with the company, too often those users are "off the hook" from courting... they have already shown interest, now wow them into converting.

Reciprocation is covered with the company providing the free trial or the free shipping. In startups, "Social proof", "Liking", "Authority", and "Scarcity" are all more-or-less defined by the userbase and market the company is in. That leaves us with "Commitment and consistency" as the magical 'weapon of influence'. So what is that exactly? I think it comes back to providing your users with an excellent product, excellent service, and make them feel like they are part of the family. From a different model, I think Zappos does an excellent job of this. To loyal Zappos customers, using the service is a no-brainer - at every turn the company makes users feel catered to, and in turn the users will continue to shop and feel confident that the relationship will work like it always has in the past.

You really have to visit one of these places to understand the whole setup. They most certainly will try to rip you off and will use every trick in the book to do so.

My favorite is this one: You pick a cheapish looking rug and they tell you you have "champagne tastes" and say it is very expensive (even though it is worth nowhere NEAR the price they ask). I remember my uncle replied to these men with, "No... I think I just have beer tastes".

That being said I highly recommend visiting the country as it is beautiful and just loaded with history going back to Roman times.

Good sales people are worth their weight in gold. I've thought about taking a course in sales, just for the social engineering skills that can be picked up.

Great article. I wonder if rug merchants will have to adapt now that their tactics are getting wider exposure?

It isn't just rugs, its everything sold by independent merchants...food/drink, cigarettes, clothes, jewelery, if its got a price tag on it you can generally half it...

Why would they? It's not about what's new, it's about what's effective. And these tactics have been effective for thousands of years. Of course, they're more effective with tourists who haven't been exposed to this sort of bargaining before, and have been trained to smile, nod, and pay whenever someone tells them a price. Still, this sort of salesmanship is -- and will always be -- effective. Why? Because it's personal, and it's relatively enjoyable for both parties if done properly.

In fact, it's only fairly recently that this sort of haggling has stopped being the way you did all your shopping (at least in the Western world.) Probably until the late 1900s, you walked into a store and expected to haggle with the owner over the price of the items that you bought.

Yes, but for thousands of years there hasn't been an Internet with bloggers detailing this sort of thing for the rest of the world. :)

I was commenting less on the haggling aspect and more on the team-based shill/forced-reciprocity system.

Knowing what it is when you see it does not make you immune to social engineering. The author knew right away what they were doing, but it still worked.

it's the developing world. people from the west will very rarely know the appropriate price for an item or service. If we supposedly 'get wise' to inflated asking prices and start haggling down to 30-50% original - they'll just inflate the original. We'll be happy knowing we got some 3rd world grinning buffoon down to 30%, he'll be happy taking home a week's wages from your fare. Frankly, that strikes me as win-win, cynical though that may sound.

Along the same lines, I've found www.changingminds.org to be the mother of all sites for techniques on convincing people to do what you want them to do.

I own three copies of Cialdini's Influence, one for myself and two to loan out.

reminds me of dr seuss's "green eggs and ham"...

Somehow the story sounds fake..

Would Turkish people really know English that well? Would they be able to communicate like that?

sigh! why the upvotes? How is this HN worthy?

because its interesting, has to do with negotiation and the psychology of bargaining.

actually this example in the rug essay is not a good one.

If you want to understand & use negotiation, read Shell's "Bargaining for Advantage": http://www.amazon.com/dp/0143036971/

the negotiation in the example isn't good, but looking back on his purchase in retrospect he admits that and identifies the reasons he ended up purchasing the rug.

on a side note, "Getting to Yes" is also another good book on negotiation.

Because this articls is about a guy who knows he sells unnecessary goods selling something successfully to a guy who knows he's buying unnecessary goods.

Kind of like web apps or startups.

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