Weary of Work | Hacker News Reader

Weary of Work

laphamsquarterly.org

136 pointsHooke83 comments

I've worked in any number of crappy labouring type jobs and the main difference between 'bearable' and 'fuck this' was most often bosses who believed in constantly giving everyone the hurry-up. Going at your own pace feels like a superpower when you're not used to it.

Being tired at the end of the day was pretty normal for most of the labouring jobs I've had, but it mostly felt like a simple exchange, my effort for money to live. Varying levels of sucky conditions were part of the weighing up against rate of pay. Overtime was just another weighing up, inconvenience of the extra hours or weirdly timed shift against higher pay.

Those simple calculations didn't usually seem unfair, until some jerk tried to get free money for himself or the company by pushing everyone to do more than they felt comfortable. Not only because of physical discomfort, but the underlying stress of always being pressured. It's totally understandable why bosses think thats a good idea, while at the same time I hate it like poison.

Obviously that problem is not restricted to manual labour, but I guess it is the one of the most easily replaceable resources, and you don't have much leverage, so it shows up often there.

I have also worked physically demanding jobs but none of them phatigued me like writing software for eight hours.

I think there's some analogue between the sore body and physical tiredness after physical labour workdays, and the mental fatigue and dull brain after all-day intense coding. Both are quite unpleasant if they overwhelm you, but there are ways to mitigate both types of effects if you are in a position to manipulate your workday and/or your free time. Snapping yourself out of those states is pretty important IMO. I've had varying success with things like sport or general exercise, it really takes willpower to overcome sometimes though. Work in progress still for me.

Or perhaps the concept of the 8-hour work day lends itself neither to physical nor mental well-being?

Similar

I wouldn’t say specifically software, it’s more in an intense office environment / thought work under high pressure.

Hard physical work I’d go home at the end of the day 10-12 hours, tired but could switch off mentally and relax. On the days off I was ready to take on the world and make the most of it.

The tough software jobs like I’m currently in have left me mentally drained like a zombie at the end of the day then physically unable to go do some exercise to get out of the pattern with some mild depression.

I found a greater sense of achievement in physical work. Working through a high number of pallets a night stacking shelves leaving in the morning with a shop isle looking pristine. Tipping one ton bags of sand or gravel with a spade and wheelbarrow, digging trenches, moving heavy materials etc etc. It’s easy to see the work you did, it’s clear, it’s simple, there’s no faff. Moving Jira tickets, sat in endless meetings feels like nothing gets done, you are working for the sake of work without doing work, people talk using the same management speak from a book answering questions without answering questions or taking ownership and instead grandstanding.

As much as I love software, right now if labouring payed, I’d switch in a heartbeat.

I go for a 20ish minute walk every day as soon as I get off the work vpn. It's a game changer for getting out of work mode and into home mode. This isn't a power walk fitness thing where I come up with side hustle ideas. It's a leisurely stroll with my dog. I often pick up the mail (community mail box) and I let my dog smell everything, and so on. When I worked in an office, I would sometimes do this before I drove home. It takes no energy, so I thought I'd suggest it.

I used to be a cook and, before that, a dishwasher. Many is the day that I look back on those simpler days, but yeah, the money. What can you do? :)

FWIW, I agree with you. After the first .com crash, I worked as a welder in a shipyard for a couple of years. (Yay fallback skills!)

I actually enjoyed the work and my coworkers, but nothing gets around the fact that it was such a physically fatiguing job that I literally had no juice left for anything other than work, sleep, and work again.

One long-term benefit is that the stresses of working in tech bother me a lot less than they did before I had my welding experience. No matter how tough the current sprint, at least I'm not covered in leathers in the belly of a ship, worried that someone will disconnect my exhaust manifold and I'll die of CO2 poisoning!

>the main difference between 'bearable' and 'fuck this' was most often bosses

I would usually get along OK with the higher ups - but the people I had to work with were a major cause of daily problems. Having to work with a disyfunctional alcoholics drinking on the job and cover for them, work with people with cognitive impairment (operating on industrial machinery that can dismember you while a guy with ~80IQ is fumbling arround and already had incidents of almost injuring people), etc.

The shit jobs I had were shit because of coworkers. I didn't do a lot of them, this is only anecdotal, etc. etc. but I just wanted to add a counterpoint.

I had the complete opposite experience in SW, there the stress usually does come from higher up and coworkers are usually either great or not a problem.

There is something very draining about 'menial' physical labor. Especially in the modern era, where lots of the remaining factories run 24/7 operations to stay open.

A bigger issue in more modern factories is technology augmenting old analog processes and systems. So now you have the physical burden of the work, which is much faster since all the 'thought' is handled by automation. However now you're responsible for the labor and babysitting the automation(which can go awry often and quickly).

I found it worse in the Winter, with the shorter days. Where sometimes you'd rarely see the sun in a month.

There are various notions of "focus" in academia, many of which are associated with the "positive psychology" school.

In sympathy with your observation, I've looked for studies of these phenomena. But I haven't yet seen any study about the difference between "focus" in contexts where the agent has deeply internalized complex skills (e.g. an athlete) versus "focus" in contexts where the agent is expected to deeply internalize seemingly arbitrary routines (e.g. a warehouse fulfillment worker). Needless to say, athletes are much more able to "focus" than warehouse workers.

I suspect that it may be statistically significant that, in the athlete's case, their ability to "focus" is deeply related to how emotionally fulfilling their tasks are perceived to be.

In other words, we should expect wildly divergent degrees of "ability to focus on work" depending on the type of work we are discussing.

To me, this is the crux of the Developer Experience movement: give me meaningful work, and I'll give you inspired/concentrated labor; give me bullshit, fruitless, clickbait concerns, and I'll give you bare minimum effort.

Well said. I think your observation about the centrality of meaning not only rings true in the specific case of developer experience but also echoes the meaning crisis endemic to modern American life.

Put another way, the capacity for human accomplishment in the context of WWII or the Apollo Program boggles the mind somewhat less when you consider how much these projects meant to the people involved.

The meaning vacuum is distorting the culture beyond bullshit jobs, too, as is increasingly visible in people losing themselves in ideology or hatred for The Other. For many, these feel like the most foundational things they have to believe in.

I would suggest as well that the components of athletics, e.g. running, is something that we're evolutionarily used to - being a better runner would mean you would be less likely to be eaten/more likely to eat. Arbitrary tasks have no evolutionary advantage to them, so there's no a) biological systems for getting good at them or b) positive emotional feedback to incentivise getting good at them. If we'd had the same factory work for millions of years, we might have some mechanisms to enjoy or get good at it.

> evolutionary advantage

> If we'd had the same factory work for millions of years, we might have some mechanisms to enjoy or get good at it.

This is simply NOT how evolution works. It's not intelligent and does not super-optimize a species for some task.

It's very chaotic and messy and constantly gets stuck into local minima/maxima where species are barely "good enough" to survive.

Furthermore, it works only on a set of physical attributes. There isn't a set of genes for liking repetitive work, or pop music, or similar abstract psychological traits.

This is why the infamous eugenics experiments of the 1940s could not develop superhuman psychological traits.

Please provide evidence to the contrary instead of silent downvotes.

This reminds me heavily of the concept of flow, which (by my second hand knowledge) is an established scientific field of study.

The difference is also that with warehouse type jobs, you're always on edge while practically bored/unengaged. These are both highly unpleasant feelings draining you much faster.

Can you provide a reference that elaborates on "flow"?

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/flow-the-psychology-of-optimal...

> with warehouse type jobs, you're always on edge while practically bored/unengaged

This isn't always true. "On edge" might depend on how shitty the management/culture is. And I personally can enjoy my time doing simple labor tasks. It can be a great time to enjoy music, podcasts, or just think.

The main difference in focus is that sports is a "game". In a game the rules do not change.

If rules can not change your subconscious start doing it if you repeat it again and again, leaving the conscious free to just focus on improving a little bit.

That is a natural thing and we love it. If you go hunting or fishing every day you develop habits and getting out and getting food becomes easier and easier over time, because those activities do not change. That is the essence of "flow".

The essence of positive phycology is knowing what is happening so you can do something about it. You don't need to see yourself as a passive victim(give me X) but you can be the main actor in your life.

One of the best skills I have ever acquired is the ability to say No from unreasonable request on me or my team. The most shocking thing was that people understand it way better than I expected.

If they give you BS as work and you know you are going to do a bad job, you should tell those who give it, instead of them getting bad quality work later.

I've had programming jobs like that

> There is something very draining about 'menial' physical labor.

That can be true, depending on the context.

But there's something about doing physical tasks that is satisfying and dignified. I used to bus tables when I first started working. It was certainly menial and low status, but there was camaraderie with others doing that job or similar ones. It felt good to do something real. And although it was physically exhausting to come home at 2am smelling of restaurant, it was easy to have a hard sleep and a total reset the next day.

What is far more draining and harmful is menial cognitive labor without tangible meaning, working under arbitrary rules and oppressive oversight. Even if it's "easy" it can lead to burnout, to feeling that you don't matter or are invisible and replaceable like a commodity. These effects persist and last, there's no waking up in the morning and feeling a sense of "reset". I think some people just get crushed by this. I do. Others seem to thrive if they can find a headspace where they can do that job while being mentally checked-out.

My first “real” job was dishwasher with extra kitchen duties as time allowed, and bussing if it got too busy for the waitresses to keep up. The chef was a hard-ass but had the work ethic to back it up.

It was actually a pretty high status job for a 14 year old in a small town. Minimum wage plus a small but fair share of tips so if you had to hustle you knew it’d be rewarded.

I couldn’t do that kind of work now physically, but it remains my favorite among the many jobs I’ve had.

> There is something very draining about 'menial' physical labor.

I wonder to what extent it's related to precisely the fact that physical labour is ever more seen as "menial".

This just reaffirms my belief that automation is net a good think for society and humanity although I do fear that the benefits will not be equally distributed without changes to taxation and introduction of UBI.

Both of these will happen, just matter of time.

Each robot should be paid at least minimum wage taxed at 100% minus wear and tear and that should be redistributed across unemployed.

Define "robot". If it's a clear one-to-one of a human job lost and a robot being slotted in, fine. But modern factories are full of processes being monitored and executed automatically.

Is a conveyor belt a robot? What about a giant, complex machine that monitors itself to an extent and can execute a series of actions?

The metric could be how many human beings a particular device can replace. If a conveyor belt could be replaced by 10 people working in shifts where at any given time 5 people work, then the machine should be paid 5x minimum wage.

One skilled engineer and a few mechanics operating and maintaining a network of conveyors can move a boatload of stuff in a day. They use this tech as leverage.

If they replace, say, five hundred people with carts, we can say that the conveyors replaced 495-ish people.

But the carts replace probably another x people. And the gloves the workers wear. And their boots. The factory is probably climate controlled, which helps immensely. Simple clipboards with paper do so much to keep the wheels of industry turning. Even safety goggles contribute to productivity.

Which of these technologies have to ge “paid”, and how much? This isn’t a simple approach at all, and very easy to game by production facilities.

UBI as a good thing.. and when the government says you have to do X in order to get benefits, and X requires you to divest yourself of your integrity? Or modify your genetics? Or not associate with certain friends?

Better learn to grow some food if you don't want to be on the 'go along to get along' bandwagon.

The U in UBI mean universal. And if the government is placing restrictions on then it's no longer universal.

Even though we all pay into it most states have placed so many ridiculous restrictions on unemployment that the federal govt had to step in and say if you are unemployed you qualify for this supplement. And left it at that, no income, drug testing, or other silly requirements to it. And that is how it should be.

I know it's not helpful to just go "well duh" to things like this. That being said, I feel like that's pretty far from surprising. Menial repetitive things can be incredibly draining.

I recommend James Suzman's recent book Work: A Deep History, from the Stone Age to the Age of Robots, which examines our relationship with work from our evolutionary beginnings to modern day. The interplay of most of our human past from before agriculture, that revolution, the industrial revolution, and our beliefs about economics and distribution of scarce resources or abundance will likely change your views about how much to work and where to get satisfaction in life.

A big takeaway is that much of what many of us believe are human traits are more products of an economic system we choose than our basic wiring. Ignorance of other systems keeps us from seeing we can change our beliefs.

Thank you so much for the recommendation! I am reading it right now! It is an awesome and engaging read! :-)

I deal with chronic, severe fatigue due to 2 rare immune-mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system. This is what generally helped me manage my fatigue:

The ultimate resource for dealing with fatigue is the book called "Energityvene" ("Energy Thieves") [1] which is only printed in Norwegian. It covers pretty much every single fathomable situation in terms of people dealing with fatigue, such as disabled people and high-performing professionals. It covers all types of fatigue, whether it be physical or mental. Most importantly, it gives actionable solutions for all of the above categories for people in various situations.

Unfortunately, this is the only source that covers it from A to Z. The book helped me tremendously and was life changing. I found it by searching across the web, using key words, and found a bunch of useful Norwegian PDFs, such as these [2][3]. Since it was mostly all related to a book in Norwegian, I found a bookstore that sold an eBook version of "Energityvene". I converted the book to a .docx file using Calibre [4], and then I uploaded it to IBM Watson Language Translator [5], and had the .docx translated to English. I then read it and it changed my life.

Also, chronobiology [6] is a big deal and makes a huge difference, if you understand it and study it. Knowing your chronotype (circadian rhythm pattern) and calibrating your life around it makes a huge difference. Here are a bunch of useful PDFs about chronobiology [7]. Interestingly, I use light therapy (different sorts of therapeutic lighting) calibrated around the time of day, for my chronotype, to manage my energy levels consistently, so my circadian rhythm stays the same. So, I use a wake-up light (to wake up in the morning), a special light at my desk (mid-day), a sundown lamp (during dusk/evening), and night-time lighting (no bright lights). I monitor the light levels I am exposed to throughout the day (lux levels) so it is a precise and prescriptive amount of light. With respect to finding your chronotype, you may need an actigraph watch to determine your chronotype. The Geneactiv actigraph watch does this, and also measures your lighting levels [8]. It costs around $200.

You also need to practice resting, just as hard as you work. Figuring out how to do that is hard if you have a strong type A personality, but you can do it. Be creative.

Sleep is critical, and is unfortunately extremely underrated. I also record my sleep every night with an OpenBCI EEG recorder [9], using 16 channels. It is effectively a home sleep lab [10]. When I wake up in the morning I run scripts (mostly from GitHub) to see how well I slept, and also to see the sleep staging patterns. This also helps me see if I am going to get out of my circadian rhythm.

[1] Energityvene: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34138256-energityvene

[2] DuckDuckGo Search-filetype:pdf "Energityvene": https://duckduckgo.com/?q=+filetype%3Apdf+%22Energityvene%22...

[3] DuckDuckGo Search-filetype:pdf "Energityvene" site:kognitiv.no: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=filetype%3Apdf+%22Energityvene%22+...

[4] Calibre (Software): https://calibre-ebook.com/

[5] IBM Watson Language Translation, Translating Documents Information: https://cloud.ibm.com/docs/language-translator?topic=languag...

[6] Chronobiology Information: http://www.chronobiology.ch/

[7] Peer-Reviewed Chronobiology Journal Articles: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Achronobiology.ch+filetype%3...

[8] GeneActiv Actigraph: https://www.activinsights.com/technology/geneactiv/

[9] OpenBCI Information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenBCI

[10] Home Sleep Lab Information: https://www.spisop.org/openbci/

This is quite the comment, thank you so much! It'll keep me busy through the weekend.

I was wondering if you've tried endogenous melatonin? I've beaten this drum on HN before, melatonin has been a life saver for me. Massive reductions in time to sleep and the first time in my life I've had a 24-hour rythm.

Thank you so much! If you email me (see my profile--also anyone is invited to do this), I may be able to help you get a copy of "Energy Thieves" in English! :-)

Unfortunately melatonin gives me skull-crushing headaches! :-(

I am so glad that melatonin works for you!

Interestingly, there is a calculation that is used with lighting called melantopic ratio. This is the best writeup on circadian lighting, by far [1]. Here is the best website [2]. Here is the best overview [3]. This has the best pictures for sunrise/mid-day/evening/night lighting (flip through the pages) [4].

The Dreem 2 [5] headband is probably a better option in terms of comfort, rather than the OpenBCI EEG, for most people. It unfortunately does not meet the requirements for it to be a "home sleep lab", though. Know that the company is required to follow the GDPR, which is useful, and good to keep in mind for the end-user.

Anyways, I initially found out about chronotypes from reading a Financial Times article, with my subscription (see the gifted article link I provided below) [6]. Apparently it is a huge deal in Switzerland and Germany, which I found out by doing more research into it online, and it is studied there extensively. I also gifted a Financial Times article by a sleep expert mentioning chronotypes and how to get a good night's rest [7], if you want to read that.

[1] Circadian lighting for designers and manufacturers: https://www.lrc.rpi.edu/healthyliving/img/background/additio...

[2] Lighting Research Center: https://www.lrc.rpi.edu/

[3] Creating the circadian lighting toolbox — Bringing the language into practice (MAGAZINE): https://www.ledsmagazine.com/lighting-health-wellbeing/artic...

[4] The Design Implications of Circadian Lighting: https://leducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Design-Imp...

[5] Dreem 2 Headband: https://dreem.com/

[6] How to hack your circadian rhythm: https://on.ft.com/3lSLZSW

[7] Sleep expert Matthew Walker on the secret to a good night’s rest: https://on.ft.com/2Whr8O5

Re your melatonin comment: just to check that you tried a dose of around 0.3mg/day rather than the enormous overdoses it's much easier to obtain?

I will try melatonin again, for sure. Thank you for the thoughtful suggestion! :-)

Huh, what are the effects of the “overdose”. Is there any adverse effects on sleep or just unnecessary? On some nights (mostly before I have to go in office) I’ll take 10mg melatonin and 25-50mg doxylamine to put me out ASAP.

I was about to suggest the same thing - personally larger doses than 0.7mg seem to give me restless sleep. But it's a very personal thing. Experiment if you can afford to.

I will definitely try that again, with the dose you suggested. :-)

Thank you for writing this up.

Have you ever done a sleep study for sleep-breathing disorders (SDB) ?

Sorry for the delayed response. I have done a sleep study, because I have severe restless legs syndrome (which is not benign--it really can be terrible) and periodic limb movement disorder, because of it.

So, in the middle of the night, my limbs jerk and it affects my sleep quality. So, I also have a surface EMG (electromyography) sensor connected to my leg when I sleep. I use a Bitalino [1] to record it. I share this info with my neurologist.

All of the sensors I use (I use other ones during the day to detect stress and affect using AI--I recreated the peer-reviewed journal articles in code) interface using LabStreamingLayer (LSL), which makes coding easy. Even the OpenBCI board uses LSL. It basically is a streamlined way of dealing with data from these devices.

A lot of the code in general that is posted on GitHub interfaces with LSL, so you search on like DuckDuckGo.com for like:

* "LSL" AND "EEG" site:github.com

* "LabStreamingLayer" AND "EEG" site:github.com

Anyways, you can find all sorts of interesting programs, including neurofeedback. But, you have to be good with coding and also Linux to use it. They even have code that interfaces with LSL that does LORETA scoring for neurofeedback, which is very therapeutic and useful. But, you want the 16 channel OpenBCI device to do this.

[1] https://plux.info/kits/38-bitalino-revolution-plugged-ble-81...

  > In a 1930 article in Scientific American, Donald A. Laird, the director of the Colgate Psychology Laboratory, pronounced the “poor emotional adjustment of the individual” the “most treacherous and insidious source” of worker fatigue. Mary T., a thirty-five-year-old sales clerk at Macy’s, represented a “typical case.” Because she had been complaining of tiredness for six years, her employers had given her repeated leaves with pay. Finally, the store psychiatrist easily found “emotional causes for her chronic fatigue state.” She had few friends, was very jealous of her married sister, and had poor relationships with her parents, with whom she still lived. After explaining that she had been “seeking pity and sympathy through appearing tired,” the psychiatrist “planned a scheme of emotional reeducation for her.” With that help, her mental health improved and “her chronic fatigue disappeared.”

This is a fascinating topic. I have felt like programming can be psychologically overwhelming. You doubt your choices, you worry if there’s bugs or if it will scale, and if there’s a security exploit you’ve introduced or could possibly lose customer data or bring down the service for millions of users. All that can be emotionally exhausting. A ‘no blame’ culture might actually create a better work environment than shorter hours.

I’d like to see such discussion/analysis in context of objective baseline of an individual eliciting sustenance out of raw nature, such as John Plant’s “Primitive Technology” series - hard work for mundane results, the base starting point and ongoing alternative to whatever studies address.

There seems an axiomatic assumption that “post scarcity economy” really is a thing, that a viable alternative to any system is a life of perfunctory “work” and relative leisure. Reality is: the natural starting point is eking sustenance out of dirt & growth, and all systems are an attempt to better that productivity/efficiency.

Without establishing that objective baseline, discussion of worker productivity is enticing but unproductive.

All I could think of while reading this is Amazon packers not wanting to pee because it will "affect their numbers."

> A key event was the passage of the Fair Labor Standards Act in 1938. Rather than restricting night work, the law created the right to “time-and-a-half” overtime pay, effectively ending the campaign to reduce hours. After that, both the number of hours Americans worked each week and the number of weeks they worked each year began to rise.

Das Kapital by Karl Marx goes into great detail with UK's Factory Acts of the 1800s. It's mind boggling that before those laws, children as young as 8 were working 16 hours a day in British factories.

Keep in mind that the world operated on subsistence farming before 1800, and children were put to work as soon as they could walk. Families had no choice.

Analysis of the bones of pre-1800 American colonists show extreme overwork. They died young.

Analysis of the bones of pre-Columbian Central American natives also showed extreme labor done by children.

What eventually saved children from this was the rising productivity that came from industrialization.

This is somewhat misleading : if you use human height as a proxy for wellbeing, you will see that Victorian Britain was a particularly low point.

So is studying early American colonists : they found themselves in particularly hostile territory, which they had no know-how about, with only unreliable support by ship.

The height problem was a result of the population outpacing the food supply.

The height of Americans started skyrocketing in 1800, and this continued right up to WW2, when it leveled off. As historian Eugene Weber observed, America in 1800 was the first time in human history when enough food was produced to end the constant threat of famine.

P.S. The pre-Columbian North American Indians didn't have it much better. Their bones show repeated episodes of famine.

Isn’t height something that’s mainly inherited? I’m guessing height shot up because of immigration rather than diet

There's a genetic component, surely. But if you look at historical height statistics, adequate food is clearly a dominant factor.

This is true of every country that transitioned to an adequate food supply.

Thanks, TIL

Subsistence farming is a lot of work, no doubt. But the work is very uneven. Some parts of the year, there's a lot of work. Whole winter, not so much.

Meanwhile factories run all the time.

In the winter people (at least the women) spent most of their time spinning and weaving. I expect the men were likely taking care of the animals, doing repairs and maintenance, and endless hand work we have machines to do for us today.

There's a reason parents sent their kids to those factories. They desperately needed the money. I doubt they hated their kids.

There's plenty of historical records of farmers being forced to go into factories and hating it, to the point of risking their life doing strikes and fighting strike-breakers.

Industries desperately needed cheap labor and the mechanization of farming helped by generating widespread unemployment.

> Keep in mind that the world operated on subsistence farming before 1800

Yep. But I think a big difference here is between subsistence farming and serfdom on the farm you lived in vs sending kids into the wool factories with unbreathable air. The testimonies from factory inspectors is mind blowing.

> What eventually saved children from this was the rising productivity that came from industrialization.

Eventually, thankfully yes. But the Factory Act also mandated maximum hours children could work per day, making employing children expensive as they needed double the number of children to work in shifts, which eventuated to banning shift work for children altogether (because they weren't allowed to work past certain hours making shift teams useless).

My point is the reduction of child labor hours was impossible before industrialization improved productivity.

It's not until around 1800 that the population ceased to be constrained by the ability to produce food. We live in a time of amazing abundance, they did not.

> My point is the reduction of child labor hours was impossible before industrialization improved productivity.

Farmers worked less hours and with much less intensity than industrial workers.

The incredible drop in life expectancy of farmers turning industrial workers says everything.

I farm in the summer and write code in the winter, or during the heat of the day in the summer.

Its really a great lifestyle. I highly recommend it.

You farm these days with all the benefits of technology and mass production. You are not doing subsistence farming. Making your own soap, making your own clothes, making your own tools, chopping wood for the stove, making your own barn, etc.

My family in the Philippines pretty much farm (rice and vegetables) for only a few months of the year, and the only technology they use is a few diesel water pumps. To be honest, they’re the happiest people I know

Do they make their own cloth? Weave their own clothes? Make their own soap? Make their own shoes? Saw their own planks for the buildings? Make their own nails? Eat food from elsewhere than their farm? Make their own pencils? Paper? Glass? Where did their meat come from? Chop wood and tend the woodburning stove all day?

(Thomas Jefferson's Monticello estate had a "nailery" where the nails were made that were needed for the buildings.)

In any case, powered irrigation is a huge deal. Just imagine the backbreaking work hauling the water by hand.

> Do they make their own...

Not quiet, as they're not subsistence farming but surplus farming. Though, it's not surplus as in big business, just enough to make it through to the next the year's crop. I don't even think they have bank accounts etc.

As I remarked, the surge in population without the food says everything.

It's interesting to put some perspective on the whole climate change. It's less surprising that humanity went ballistic when physics and engineering freed them from so much.

> What eventually saved children from this was the rising productivity that came from industrialization.

Not at all. On the contrary, the life expectancy dropped to an all-time low for the underclass during the industrial revolution.

> subsistence farming before 1800, and children were put to work

It's been very common for children to start doing house work a young age and then learn a trade from their parents. And it's still the norm in many poor rural countries today.

It's very unfair to describe it as dangerous or abusive and compare it to the industrial revolution life.

England saw a surge in population at the time, outpacing the food supply. That is the explanation for the drop in life expectancy. People did not migrate from the farms to the factories in order to lower their standard of living.

There were plenty of examples in Factory Act testimonies by inspectors saying air quality for children in factories was unbearable leading to lung problems later on in life (average death being under 40)

People wouldn't have sent their kids to the factories if life was better on the farm. I doubt that many people at the time were aware of the long term effects of smoke inhalation.

My understanding is that the UK experienced a population boom due to increased farming productivity due to potatoes. The resulting population boom meant that there where more farmers than farms, so they had to go somewhere, and the only option was cities.

Most blue collar guys I ever worked with would leap at the chance for overtime or holiday double pay. It's the only way they'd really make some money.

The way that salaried employees have kept a very similar mindset even though they don't make an additional dime by working more perplexes me. Although it's sometimes worth it; one good session from 10pm to 4am can sometimes accomplish more real work than three weeks of 9-5 business days.

The key to salaried employment is establishing a monopoly you can exploit; 'corporate entrepreneurship'.

You work very hard at something in a company and become the expert / unreplacable. Then, spend some time automating those tasks. After doing that for a few years, you can then spend much, much less time 'working' since your work is being done for your by machines you manage.

I remember reading that Henry Ford didn't pay 5 dollars a day out of some deep insight or goodness in his heart but because people hated factory work. So he had to pay very good money for the time to find workers.

He also was a good friend of Hitler.

I don't know my history. Are they saying that working in a factory was more fatigue inducing than working on a farm? Or just that working in a factory was fatigue inducing and not comparing it to other ways of living that were common at the time. In any case I'm glad I am fortunate not to work in a factory

The article makes no comparison to any other fields.

Factories had pretty tough working conditions full of repetitive, dangerous work, and most of the things that rich world workers take for granted (weekends, an 8-hour week, even minimum amounts of breaks for toilets and lunch) were fought for with blood, sweat and tears. The article argues that the continued drive for ever-increasing productivity encouraged studies to figure out how to make workers less fatigued, in the best scenarios for workers' own benefit and in the worst scenario to try and squeeze them dry.

The beautiful psychology of "this is boring and not that hard... Except if you slip up you'll be greviously injured"

Digging a hole is hard work, but it's very difficult to hurt yourself doing it.

> Digging a hole is hard work, but it's very difficult to hurt yourself doing it.

Dying while digging a well is still happening where wells are dug by hand. People have accidents while cleaning their apartments, digging a hole deep enough to hit ground water has lots of dangers.

I did hole digging (more like trench picking actually) and it was the most arduous, laborious, straining, exhausting job I ever had to do, bar none. So hard you get to learn a lot of new adjectives.

Picking is even an art form, because done badly.. most of the energy will backfire right into your hands and wrists. I was utterly surprised how fine you need to operate that mass to ensure your 8000 hits per day won't destroy you.

Lots of people get hurt using shovels. I cut my toe off with a shovel as just one example. Shoved the shovel down, bad aim. I knew 3 other kids that got hurt with shovels when I was young. They're a big heavy dull knife. They'll enter skin pretty easily.

New report that water is wet. If you can operate in a career that is not menial labor you typically would do that.

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