Comment by rconti | Hacker News Reader

Comment by rconti | Hacker News Reader

I've been following the id.4 release with moderate interest. I previously had a 2016 Golf R 6 speed manual, and now have a 2018 Tesla Model 3.

IMO, the VW is just too expensive. Now, if you're getting the tax credit on the VW, and of course can't get it on a Tesla anymore, that makes the difference. But without the credit, the id4 is virtually the price of an AWD Model Y. For a vehicle that doesn't have AWD, has a ton less power, is significantly slower, less range, and no supercharger access.

Now, those aren't awful hits against a tax-credit-fueled $10k savings (or whatever). But I don't think it's close to there yet.

There are a lot of weird things from the reviews I've seen, too. Spotty voice recognition, "free" charging requires you to use a fiddly phone app, the car only has 2 window switches and requires that you toggle between front and rear with a 3rd button (wtf), and the Nav system is awful and routes you to chargepoint (ultra slow) chargers on a roadtrip, vs DC fast chargers.

So much of this can be changed in software, and maybe VW will drop the price when the tax credits go away, the same way Tesla did.

But, it just seems like far too little car for the money.

The standard range Model Y, which you can only order in-store/phone (so I'm not even sure if it's still available), costs something like $42k and it's RWD, not AWD, and has about the same range as the ID4.

You also can't just say "without the credit." Once the ID4 loses the tax credit, VW will cut the price of the ID4. Tesla cut the price of the Model 3 when it started losing the credit.

The ID4 "First" edition with RWD only, 201hp 250mi range and 7.1s 0-60 had a $45,190 base price in the US vs a $49,490 AWD Model Y with 326mi range and 4.8s 0-60. (I had to go back and look up all the numbers I was looking at a month or two ago when I was following ID4 reviews. Apologies if you don't feel like this was represented properly in my initial comment).

Credits depend on what state you're in, and whether you're eligible, which is why I don't factor those in for the VW. When we bought our Tesla I think we got $7500 fed and $2500 state, so it took a clean 10k off the effective price.

As you mention, the base RWD Model Y, if you can get one, would be more similar in specs. It doesn't seem to be available anymore. Range was similar, it was sub-$40k, and massively faster I'm sure, than the comparatively glacial ID4 (we have a RWD 3 which is something like low 5s 0-60).

I agree with you 100% on the "without credit" part. Which is precisely why I stated it up front in my original comment. Right down to how VW may cut prices as the credit dries up just like Tesla did.

I'm referring to the base ID.4 Pro, not the ID.4 First. The $7500 federal credit also does not depend on your state.

well my sister is looking at it for 29k after incentives that is a lot less than Model 3 or Y

I agree with a lot of this VW seems to have done the “let’s rethink everything,” but much less successfully than Tesla. Not surprising giving their generations-long corporate legacy.

I’m kinda interested in the Nissan Arya, because it looks like they are trying to learn from the Leaf and make it attractive to not-terribly-into-EV buyers. It just looks like a very nice semi-luxury that has been engineered to be an EV, without rubbing it in your face that it’s an EV.

I'm always so amused when I see people complaining about certain cars being too expensive.

The cheapest Tesla Model 3 costs 160k SGD here, which is about 120k USD. And it gets more expensive from there.

Not to mention the fact that your COE expires after 10 years after which you have to pay another 50k to be allowed to drive it for another 10 years.

Ok? I'm saying the VW is too expensive for what it is, in the market it competes in, in the US and I believe in Europe as well.

If you show me how the VW is a great bargain in your country vs the Tesla, that's an interesting argument.

Complaining that cars are cheap in countries other than your own doesn't really relate to the VW's relative place in the market.

You are right.

My thinking behind the post was to suggest that the "it's expensive" argument doesn't really matter, since all cars are so cheap in the US.

This is of course not a great line of reasoning, since people look at the cost of a car in relative terms. I should have thought it through before posting.

I assumed the id 3 is a closer match to Golf and Tesla Model 3. It's 20% cheaper (in Europe) but not launched in the US.

It’s $17k cheaper than the Model Y you’re talking about (longer range, AWD) after the tax credit.

Tax credit depends on the state, of course. And I suspect your "$17k cheaper" is currently vaporware:

> The ID.4 will eschew Volkswagen's traditional S, SE, and SEL trim hierarchy and instead will be offered in base, Pro, and 1st Edition trims. A base model priced around $35,000 will satisfy value-minded consumers with EV aspirations, but that entry-level ID.4 won't launch until sometime in 2022. In the meantime, the ID.4 Pro and loaded 1st Edition models serve as the ID.4's launch trims.[1]

1. https://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/id4

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