On Being an Outsider
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People also say joining some club helps. I did kickboxing for year, there isn't much talking as it turns out... Anyway, I was really homesick the whole time, I still am. In Russia, we don't celebrate Christmas that much, the New Year is a major holiday. That time of the year is the hardest: no familiar festive music, the street decorations are off.
I kind of accepted all that, since I decided to pursue professional and scientific opportunity instead of comfort. I still wonder if I make the right choices from time to time. I think it's natural to do that though.
It’s different for smaller cities, since most young immigrants congregate in IT hubs. And there’s a huge difference to, say, Chinese or Thai. The latter seem to value their community much more that Russians.
Everytime someone here asks me where am I from, I genuinely don't know how to answer them.
Do I say I'm from India? Well, I haven't gone back once in these 5 years, and I do feel more at home here in Toronto than I would in India, so I'm not sure that's fair. So do I then say I'm from Toronto? But that feels almost like cheating - I didn't have a childhood here, I have no stories to recall from school trips, so how can I lay claim to this beautiful city?
I am coming to accept that I truly belong from nowhere. That I have transient experiences that stretch from Delhi to Mumbai to Chandigarh to Toronto to Ottawa (interned there for a year). The inherent complexity of the question "where are you from?" affords it no wrong or right answers, and at least theoretically, I should not be ashamed to claim the place I resonate with the most, or claim no place at all.
PS: Looking at the comments, it does feel nice to know that I am not the only one that somehow continues to seek a sense of belonging.
The simple simple answer to the simple question of where he's from may depend on the context asked in. Say he's in Toronto and someone asks where he is from. Simple answer: India.
Let's say he's in Ottawa, say for a training course or something. Same question asked. Simple answer: I'm from India but I've been living in Toronto for 5 years.
If he's doing a PR or citizenship, add that: I'm from India but live in Toronto and I'm doing my citizenship process right now.
It's really not that hard and yes the guy is overthinking it if you ask me. I've been in that situation. It's really easy to answer. He may get asked more often because he's a 'visible minority' but otherwise it's the same.
The question was not: where do you feel at home? or something in that direction.
If he was born and raised in Toronto (say his parents came to Canada from India) then because he's a visible minority people might expect him to answer "from India" while answering "from Canada" would make it clear what his situation is. One might answer "from Canada, born and raised in Toronto but my parents came over from India in the 70s" (or some such).
In my case, being engaged with church was probably the most successful driver of these things. I'm in a very different place in terms of metaphysical beliefs now than I was growing up, but I can't deny the strong network effects of regularly meeting with a group of people that seek ostensibly compatible goals of self-improvement through empathy, service, and self-congratulation.
I now live in Sydney, Australia, and when I say "I'm going home", I mean I'm going to Whistler, not Toronto. Whistler feels like home.
Yet, when I say "I'm from Whistler", people always say "you were born there?" which is very rare, so I have to explain that I moved around a bunch and didn't have a place that felt like "home", which people then discount.
It's very strange, but at the same time, I've read a few people suggest that you're "from" the first place you consciously decided to move from and stayed.
I still catch myself unecessarily projecting my way of thinking onto situations which distorts what is actually going on or loses information, just because its easier to do - not because its correct or fair.
They can misunderstand you, but they don't get to decide how you define 'home' to yourself, even if they discredit you.
When someone asks me - “where am I from?”. I say - India. Because, I do not have native US speaking skills and I also want to remain connected with my roots.
I just think of the question as a conversation starter I guess, give as little or as much info as you want to give the asker lol
If you are in the US you might say Canada. If you are in BC you might say Toronto or Ontario If you at the University of Guelph you might say UofT If you are in Toronto you might say India If you are in India in a different region you might say goa If you are in goa you might say your village name If you are in your village you might point to an area or your street If on your street you might give the number
Where you are from is closest place that is different to the other person.
I think you’re affording far too much into the question- they probably just want to know where you were born.
But do you- nothing wrong with following the beat of your own drum.
One essential essay that really helped me and can not stop to suggest is "In the Name of Identity: Violence and the Need to Belong" by Amin Maalouf [1][2] The original title in French is "Les identités meurtrières" translated as "the murderous identities".
If I may, you are belonging from everywhere that feels home in a way or the other. And the more abroad you'll be, the more home will take multiple dimensions and it's okay. When someone ask you, you can answer "India and Canada" and let's them deal with it, not you :).
With my partner, we cover the ground about the identity questions : me being a second-generation son of arab's parent in an UE country, her being, like you, from a east-asian country but living abroad for 5-6 years now. The question of home, identity and where we belong is common and the answers morph based on where and how we live.
For me is funny, because when I identify myself from the city I was born and raised in UE, I got question about my origins like it is the "correct answer" but if someone from that city hears me speaking, they can't doubt I am from here because I used a lot of the specific slang/dialect from there. It happened a few time ago where a old man helping my mom told that "I can hear you are from here". On the flip coin, I also speak the dialectal Arab from my parent region (albeit with a UE accent) so people speaking Arab can identify from which region/country I must come from. So most of the time, I answer both and let people ask the uncomfortable questions about their conception of identities and where I belong/from themself. But that does not mean that I have dealed with my identity myself, I am still constructing it and trying to gather the different pieces together and glue them, especially now that I am living in yet another country :)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Name_of_Identity
[2] https://www.amazon.com/Name-Identity-Violence-Need-Belong/dp...
That was (by far) the most difficult move, because there was no longer an obvious indicator that I wasn't from wherever there was. Acculturation was difficult.
Honestly, I never felt bad about being a foreigner anywhere else. Most people didn't care, and of those who did, most were honestly curious, and it was a fun way to start a conversation and potentially make a new friend. Negative attention was present, too, but the friendly outweighed the suspicious by a large margin.
Was he not able to hire a lawyer?
>being a white American, I came to grasps that I would always be a Gaijin,
Racism is too strong a word, it's more like sticking out. Like if you're the only one in large group who has black hair, or doesn't have a beard, or is a childless adult, or is religious, the assumptions of the group will from time to time remind you (and perhaps others) that you're unusual. I believe those are what are called micro-aggressions, though there need not be anything antagonistic about them.
It's fun to be different, exotic even, but it's also tiring, especially once the novelty has worn off and you just want to live like everyone else.
The one good thing about being an outsider there is people who would be guarded towards other Japanese really seem to open up if one is warm and receptive. I've had friends confide things in my they wouldn't tell their families, and I've had more than one sit-down drink with gangsters that saw me, presumably, as a novelty. It's like, "he's an outsider who's leaving soon, so why not?"
But it also gives you an unremovable link to the country. Yes I'll be a Gweilo forever in their eyes, and they barely understand when I say I'm more Chinese now than their children who spent less time here, and paid no taxes.
I guess it's fine not to fit in perfectly, it's not very important: when you make a choice to immigrate, your reasons for doing so must be both about the new country but also the old one. I have no qualms saying I gave away France, I left it knowing what I was abandonning and why, and now I can only move forward.
It's also true that I never fit in in France: I was anti-socialist, from a family that has owned small businesses for generations, believe in capitalism, free market, all these stuff that made me always make enemies in France.
Maybe I'm a gweilo, but I think all the same things they do, and I'd defend the country just as well as them.
I've come to terms with it tho, accepting that even though this is my home, I'll never be truly accepted or be able to fit in.
But I also think this has made me a better person. Having experienced racism multiple times here, I'm much more aware of my own actions.
Somehow people around me always think the opposite. They're telling me I'm their best friend or at least that they value my attendance.
Overall, I'm okay with this. When I have to move or leave a group, I usually don't miss what I've left. I have the impression my life gets better when it changes.
But sometimes I think if my life would be better if I was more invested in belonging.
I rarely do smalltalk, I talk about what interests me, usually the people I'm currently talking with.
I had to eventually move away, for various reasons, but being in a foreign land, alone, is alienating by default. You never really know the rules or customs, you have no shared cultural background, like TV shows or games, and the nuance of a foreign language is so deep.
i don’t think there is a group of humans with a shared identity that is truly and completely welcoming to people outside of that identity.
which is why i don’t enjoy making country a part of my identity.
The EU is actually trying very hard to facilitate moving betwen member nations, but it faces a lot of headwind from people in all countries who would prefer staying in their bubble. Brexit is probably the most impactful result of this tension.
Funny enough since quite a few EU member nations have not existed 150 or 200 years ago, and the nation concept has the additional third reich connotation especially in Germany. This is in stark contrast with the UK, which has existed as a nation for a much, much longer time.
which gives us an estimate for how long it might take until those differences disappear. the EU in it's current form (with freedom of movement within, promoting a shared identity) has only existed for a few decades. so maybe another half a century, give or take a decades or two.
i meant differences as in disagreements. those differences that make us argue and fight.
we should not be proud to love our country, but to love the whole world.
and that indeed requires to accept and embrace all of human diversity. the european union is possibly a step towards that goal.
Amusingly, Russia is one of, if not the youngest European state if we consider this kind of continuity.
Prior to that it was a couple of kingdoms, each of which changed allegiance between the various middle-European empires many times, every time there was a war or someone noble married.
Parts of Germany were occupied over long stretches of time, e.g. by the Swedish, the French, more recently the British and Americans, every time leaving an impression in the culture.
Culture in various parts of Germany in diverse, most striking is the difference between Prussia and Bavaria.
Cultural development in Germany was regionally diverse and subject to huge outside influence all the time.
If there was legal continuity then it was because the whole of Europe was governed by the same bunch of emperor families since the fall of Rome.
But this was totally decoupled from culture.
It also depends on your social circles and where in Germany you are. If you are in Berlin or Hamburg being German won't matter too much. If you are in the suburbs of shouthern or eastern German cities, much more so. If you are in the creative world of Berlin you might get away without talking German at all.
Given it's comparedly small size Germany has a surprisingly diverse regional culture, which is why people who know the regions well usually lough at the idea of something that is "real German". Or as the Austrians say it: "What divides us from the Germans, is the common language" and I'd argue Bavarian and northern German culture is equally far apart.
My home dialect is so far removed from "propper written German" that to me it just feels like talking a different language, which arguably makes things easier, because it doesn't feel like I am adjusting my Austrian German to make it fit, it feels like I am talking in a different language altogether.
But when moving away one must quench that local dialect and try to speak "hochdeutsch" ("high-german")—Otherwise one can't even buy bread in a bakery without being called out as the "swabian" (which seems to be the catch-all for all southern dialects in Northern Germany). Compare that to Switzerland, where people proudly speak their "Mundart" wherever they go (and are wound up by high-German speaking immigrants).
Germany has such a wonderful regional diversity, but at the same time that inherent hostility against it... and Germans are, for some reason, super-afraid to discuss it.
I can only imagine how hard that is for a foreigner.
No matter where, it was always easiest to find friends among people who themselves have moved around a lot. People who always lived in the same place will almost always have their wall up, especially if they have the feeling that too many foreigners invade their home town.
I have found that variability within countries is higher than between (Western) countries. Which does not mean there are no mean differences, but with a limited sampling size you can get a very wrong impression.
Same reason you cannot possibly judge your own country BTW: you can't pass for an outsider, and you will have that almost innate shared set of references.
Some specific people will treat you more warmly than others. Some neighborhoods or neighbors will have more culture in common and with yours.
That's the experience that I've had living in a few different parts of the US and Mexico.
One thing that mitigates all of that a bit is the internet. Hacker News, for example, is the same place for everyone, in a way.
For me, I have always had poor social skills and little integration into communities, so it's not a big difference really. Other people who thrive on constant face-to-face social interaction may find things like language or cultural barriers to be more of an issue. But again, really depends who you are talking to. If the locals seem put off by your accent or something, the next bar over may be full of Americans if you are near a tourist area.
But on a deeper level, there certainly are real social consequences of being an outsider, as well as potentially a psychological disconnect if things always feel slightly off from the world that your brain grew up in.
I'd disagree. Sometimes it's about who you are, not about what you do. In some societies you can blend in easily (like San Francisco), in some -- there's no chance, no matter what you do.
Still think most of the other things I said apply if you include all of the context rather than just what you quoted.
You'll never change your physical appearance, but you can change everything else, your name, your language, your ideas. Don't immigrate if you don't love the local customs so much you're ready to die for them.
those people often see themselves as outsiders as well, so they share your feelings even if they are locals. welcome to the local outsiders club. hackerspaces work like that too.
other not so popular activities work as well. if you play an instrument, irish folk sessions are easy to join. you don't even need to talk to anyone, just join in to play and you'll be welcome.
if you have kids, boy/girl scouts can be good to. if your kids have trouble finding friends in school, then being part of such a group will help them find a few kids that they have a special interest in common with.
martial arts i believe are also a good choice because they have a stronger focus on discipline and mutual respect than groups that just meet for fun. you can focus on your training while meeting people with the same interest.
I was always lonely, but sometimes some people would be friendly towards me, and I'd feel sad... "Come play <some sport or a local game> with us," they'd say. "I would love to.... but I can't. I don't belong here," I'd think. Of course, I couldn't reply with that.
I don't really belong / resonate with foreign cultures either. The internet (at least the part I was on most of the time) is mostly Western, but there are many differences still.
My 'home' has become with individuals, instead. Some people really resonate with me and make me feel that I belong with them, that I am not a stranger, not an outsider. They are extremely rare, but they're here; parent and siblings, along with some very close friends. And I am honestly very thankful for their presence.
Communities like HN as well don't give me the "I don't belong here" feeling. I don't know why... maybe because I grew up with communities like this? (I grew up with the old forum boards of old. It's a shame that most are dead now.) Or maybe because these communities are mostly defined by their contributors, their users, and so I don't feel like a stranger? I am not sure, honestly.
I have been wanting to write about this for a while in full detail, but I haven't had the time unfortunately.
This was not the ONLY reason of course, but after having left behind all this frenchness, I have never felt so at home. Which is funny because there's nothing more foreign than a Normandy guy in Hong Kong, but at least here everything is in English, everyone speaks it to some extent while having another main language (so just like me).
I'll always be a foreigner in the eyes of Chinese people, for sure, but I'll never find a place with some many people like me, they even are majority right wing capitalists like me, something very rare in France :D
It's such a weird feeling to be an outsider among people who speak your language.
But there are upsides to this - not being too attached to a specific place allowed me to take advantage of a few unique opportunities.
Being lonely has become such a huge factor in (especially young) people's lifes, because they need to hop cities for university and later jobs a few times before they start settling down, that a lot of the friends they make have moved away, or they themselves moved away from their friends and it's hard to find new friends. Sometimes your only new social interactions are at work, and in a country like Germany where work and private are strictly separated at first, this is a double whammy.
It also affects very old people, whose friends have died and whose children and their friends have moved away.
Solitude is endemic in the west.
May I ask, what are the main reasons why they wonder that? Thanks.
I think I'll always feel like an outsider here, but this city is very much my own.
Part of it comes from a personal investment in this city. I invested in its language and its bureaucracy. I have built a business with this city in its name, whose purpose is to help others who face the same bureaucratic and cultural challenges. I also moderated a Berlin-related community for a few years.
Another part is exploration. I actively seek new experiences in Berlin. I try new places, new dishes, new bike paths, new activities. I read about German culture and history, watched dozens of German movies, cooked German dishes, and all the other things.
The one missing part in my opinion is the social aspect, and I blame myself for it. I usually keep to myself, and didn't take learning German seriously enough for a while. Yet, it took me so long to make friends and become comfortable with the language that it's my strongest attachment to the city. I'm not ready to start over again.
By now if I went back to my home country, I'd feel much more alienated. I have spent the better part of my adult life in Berlin. It's where everything I built lies.
The Berliner Schnauze is certainly a real thing, but I don't think it's that common. More common perhaps is Ausländer using the term to excuse their unpleasant behaviour. I've seen that a lot more.
You really think so? I was under the impression that Munich is the most unwelcoming city.
I see:
* Very likely quite a bit of cropping going on. The framing on the subway fight is perfect, which I imagine would be hard to pull off in the time needed while the fight was occurring.
* Also likely some perspective correction in post. The horizontal and vertical lines of the office building are damn near pixel accurate. Even with a good tilt-shift lens, I'd be surprised if that was accomplished entirely in-camera. Most lenses have some amount of distortion.
* Color correction is common but hard to strictly demonstrate. But, in general, the color in all of these is too beautiful to be real to me.
* Some HDR, but well done (which is rare). Look at the shot of the party. You can see some texture on the dark building facade, even though the illumination of that is likely several orders of magnitude darker than the windows. The texture looks sort of weird and squishy, which likely means that the brightness of the building was raised significantly in post, or possibly even a combination of two shots with different exposures.
Wonderful work.
If you feel like a foreigner in this world, then that is a good sign. This is not ultimately your true home.
I'll hedge my bets here. 100 years is too long to sit on my hands.
Although impostor syndrome is usually talked about in the context of the workplace, not being a 'foreigner' in another city.
I think capitalism is extremely isolating.
You have to move for your job, so people have to cut all the ties that they've made, leave their communities, friends, families....all for money.
Sure you can make new ones, but after working and commuting for 8 to 10 hours a day you get home exhausted and on weekends you have to take care of personal errands.
Now multiply this times millions of people, it makes it very hard for multiple people to have the time and energy to forge a friendship that will take effort and time. Effort and time that people don't really have.
There's tons of studies about how isolated people become after college.
I don't know what the solution is.
Remote work is going to be awesome and huge to help with this.
I dunno, I've seen too many remote job opening with must be located in US, Western EU location requirements
Edit: grammar and clarity