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Comment by dcolkitt | Hacker News Reader

> 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less.

It's always shocking to me how low European SWE compensation is. Is it similar for other skilled professionals? What do accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, pilots, physical therapists, etc. make?

I understand the demand side. I think the European tech industry is much less successful than its American counterpart, and therefore has less money to pay. But I don't understand the supply side. Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive needed to become a software engineer pursue that field?

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> Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive needed to become a software engineer pursue that field?

Instead of... what? It's not like you can make 2x the salary easily by instead becoming something else. Salaries are pretty flat, if you want to make money you should invest in somethig or have your own company.

Also: I'm not sure it's' a good idea to pick jobs based on salaries. It's good to not worry about money at all (which almost no SWEs' need to). After that I'd recommend pursuing sommething one finds interesting.

Edit: I think there is a cultural difference in the US where one is expected to aggregate net worth/savings throughout one's career, for many reasons (ability to send kids to better schools, saving for rainy day e.g. sickness, ...). In a welfare state I don't have that priority. I wouldn't switch to a job paying 2x the money unless it's really a interesting job! Because there is almost nothing that 2x the money would do to my lifestyle, the future prospects or security of my family etc.

This is a great point. I'm American and my girlfriend and I make close to the same amount of money. We have recently decided to live(buy a home etc.) off of just one salary and completely invest the other salary because the penalty for getting sick and losing your job in the USA is so high that we don't feel comfortable spending most of both salaries.

ALSO, this is only possible because we each make 150% of the median household income in our city. Our country is awful for the average person, it really really is.

Oh yeah forgot to mention the combined $90,000 in debt we have in student loans(so we can get these jobs) and car payments(so we can drive and exist in society).

It's just such a stupid way to organize a society...

To drive this point back to the conversation at hand--these American pressures are what drive the mindset that dominates most of any English speaking dev forum.

> In a welfare state I don't have that priority

I just don't believe that's true. Many, many more Germans immigrate to Switzerland, the UK or even America than vice versa. That's primarily because professional salaries in the latter are higher. That strongly suggests that at least some non-negligible proportion of German professionals care about compensation.

Obviously there are tons of people who want to do this. But the difference I think is that fewer people feel the need or expectation to aggregate wealth over their career.

Another angle I didn’t think of is the work-hard-retire-early mindset which of course means that a) you work hard and expect high comp for it b) if you do long hours and have little holiday, you have a higher interest in retiring early, which requires lots of capital.

My SWE salary is with 6w holidays, haven’t done many workweeks over 40h yet in a 20 year career. I don’t just expect to work to 70, I want to work to 70. My work life balance means I have more than enough time for gardening and travel without retiring. Retiring at 70 requires a lot less capital than doing so at 55.

> But the difference I think is that fewer people feel the need or expectation to aggregate wealth over their career.

German savings rates are 50% higher than America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gross_nat...

Germans are probably more successful at saving! I do think though that if you asked “is it important to have a well paying job” or “important to retire rich” I think more would agree in the US (although few would succeed). I don’t have any numbers for this hypothetical interview question though.

Weak euro -> trade surplus -> Germany earns more than it spends -> savings -> lends money to importing nations

and the cycle repeats

I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer.

Most of the other professions pay less. From the list you gave, and the people I know, I would assume the sorting is roughly:

* physical therapists (can't go much lower in pay)

* pilots (there are just way too many, except for those in old contracts at the big airlines they are almost paid like bus drivers)

* accountants (usually a normal salary, but nothing special)

* civil engineers / software engineers roughly on the same level, although the latter has an easier time finding a job

Lawyers and doctors earn a lot more than engineers (at least looking at my friends in these fields), but they usually also work more, leading to a similar hourly rate.

One thing you have to account for in Germany vs the US:

* Much higher job stability.

* Most people work 35-40h a week and never do unpaid overtime.

* 6 weeks paid vacation per year is normal.

* You almost never get called into work on the weekend.

* CoL isn't as insane as in SF or Seattle, so your salary buys you a decent life.

* No copays if you get chronic conditions, cancer or some such. So you don't need to save up for a medical catastrophe.

> I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer.

You can do it in Berlin if you go the freelancer route but that comes with it's own complications in Germany.

> but that comes with it's own complications in Germany.

like what? being able to do your own tax and get refunds for all your expenses the way you should? an accountant who does once a year your "EkSt Erklaerung" costs you anywhere between 600-1000 (once a year) and it saves you anywhere between 5K - 25K depending on what your year was like and the expenses you had.

They probably mean the hassle of monthly taxes and finding multiple clients per year.

Yeah monthly taxes for the first year is a pain although it goes down to quarterly after that. It also makes it harder to get a mortgage and that you will likely not be picked when looking to rent a flat over employed people. There are also uncertainties around how long and how much you can work for a single client without causing issues for your client, although I usually don’t do contracts longer than 6mo. I think it still is far better than working salaried, at least for me.

Definitely, I'm also freelancing in Germany and wouldn't go back to salaried for now. I didn't know the details of the multiple client requirement for my first year, let's see if that comes back to bite me at some point.

Most of the perks you listed like 6 week vacation and 35h workweeks are not the norm, not even for devs, but exception that some good companies offer.

25 vacation days per year and 40h plus overtime included sometimes are more the current norm for most dev positions on the market now.

While I agree that software developers in Europe are heavily underpaid (compared to what US developers) get, I think we are compensated just fine in terms of vacation and working time. In my experience, 30 vacation day per year IS the norm. And at most 40h/week of work (it's something in which European companies "are better" than US ones: they don't work as much as Americans).

Not true, 25 vacation days per year is the norm in Austria and most of Europe, anything above that and you're in a privileged position, and most dev contracts have statements where any potential overtime is covered by you salary and not paid extra. And overtime does happen especially during crunches for releases (yeah, i know management sucks but it sucks everywhere I looked in Austria).

Maybe you can show me where I can find these 40h/week no-overtime with 30 days/year vacation jobs so I know where to move next.

Sorry, I don't know about Austria. But at least in my experience in Germany, France, and the Netherlands I always got around 28-30 days of vacation per year.

Overtime is perhaps more about the company and oneself, but in my experience is something you decide to do it or not. If you do it companies pay for overtime. I never done overtime (because companies pay pennies for it :) )

>Overtime is perhaps more about the company and oneself

Well that was my point. There's no EU law that prevents you from having to do overtime.

Well, in Germany there's the Arbeitszeitgesetz ("work time law") which handles some of those things. I think unpaid overtime is not really common in Germany, especially in "better jobs".

Also agreements with trade unions etc. take care of a sane base-level of holidays and payment.

Germany is also "heavy regulated" in the sense that good people will just choose a job with a competitor who gives you 30 days of free time and paid overtime, although he might pay less.

I think work-life-balance tips slightly over to the worker in a welfare state, because you can choose to earn 100 Euro/month a less but have more holidays AND still have not to worry about paying doctor bills.

Maybe you can show me where I can find these 40h/week no-overtime with 30 days/year vacation jobs so I know where to move next.

That describes every job I've had in Sweden over last 6-7 years or so. But then again I've made a conscious effort to void some of the 'crunchier' industries (like game studios and certain startups), which admittedly does mean getting paid a bit less.

I worked in France and vacation was 28 days for us, 2.333 days/month.

Overtime does happen but French law requires I be able to recover my time (RTT). In my experience there is a mad rush to use up that time before 31/12 so you'll see an additional holiday season around Nov-Dec. Else, it goes away and that time is lost to the fiscal year.

30 days of holidays are pretty easy to come by, 35h however is rarely the case. 40h and more is more or less the norm here.

> I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany.

exactly. I made that as a Junior in my first full-time job in Munich in 2000 already. Then moved on to freelancing and for the next decade never invoiced less than EUR 12K/month (average was actually EUR ~16K). I did a lot of hours and paid a lot of tax but it also got me fast cars, holidays in Italy, Austria or Switzerland (just for the weekends) and a nanny to help look after my kids. And I wasn't even an outlier since anyone who I worked with (often via places like Hays or Allgeier Group etc) was on pretty much the same.

What I've noticed in the recent years (I moved around 2009) is there has been a push to "Arbeitnehmerüberlassung", which is basically a racket where the outsourcing agency hires you out to their clients, they skim the margins and leave the employees with a crap salary. They sit in their clients office and are second class employees. When the project ends they're moved on to the next company if they're lucky or are asked to come in to the office (not on the client site but the place where they organize this type of slavery), then they get to call prospective clients and beg for jobs that they themselves have to do. It's surreal and idiotic but it's peoples fault for putting up with it instead of just freelancing and writing their own invoices.

Freelancers in Germany also have a problem which is called "Scheinselbstständigkeit". If you do too much work for only one client (there are no clear rules to follow) the public social security system might decide you are to be treated like an employee and your client suddenly has to pay pension insurance and health ensurance for the time you worked for them. Companies fear that because it's a huge chunk of money and to my knowledge this also contributed a lot to "Arbeitnehmerüberlassung" spreading so much into highly skilled positions.

Only if your company has a base in Germany. In my case I worked remote for a US-only company as Scheinselbstständiger, got the full US rates (ie 3x higher than german rates), and paid normal insurance. They had to pay nothing into the German SS system.

The same is the UK with so called IR35, no clear rules, grey areas all over the place, absolute shit show for freelancers and contractors.

May I ask what's your specialty and daily rate?

You also have 38h/weeks, 20+ holiday days per year, actual free weekends, many free public services, affordable healthcare with fair insurance that doesn't try to bankrupt you, ... So it balances out. How much do you have to save per month for that 200k health emergency in the US? In Germany - 0€.

If you want to get rich either be a founder or go to the US for a chance at that. If you want a good and happy life with private time your average western European country is great.

Yeah, I should have been clearer. I'm not trying to litigate the US vs. Europe debate, which I think has been discussed many times. My question more was about within Europe, the relative attractiveness of software vs other professional fields.

Median incomes in Germany are about 25% lower than the US. Yet SWE compensation seems to be 50%+ lower than the US equivalent. That would suggest that other skilled professions must make significantly more than SWEs.

For example in the US, bankers or lawyers are roughly on par with high-end SWEs. I'm would assume German bankers and lawyers are making well more than 60k. If that's the case, what incentive would talented Germans have to pursue software instead of other higher-paid careers? (I could be wrong on my assumptions, maybe skilled professionals in Germany are just much less compensated relative to the median worker in general.)

Median incomes in Germany are about 25% lower than the US. Yet SWE compensation seems to be 50%+ lower than the US equivalent.

Most numbers I can find via quick googling seems to put the median annual salary for a SWE in the US at around €75-78k and €55k in Germany. That is pretty close to the 25% number you quoted.

All skilled professions have lower pay in Europe, there isn't a "get rich" path. Doctors usually earn more but nowhere near US levels.

For me, I can say I didn't consider salary when choosing my field. It's just not a common concern, you're expected to study something you're good at and would enjoy doing. Medical and law were definitely not even remote thoughts for me.

It was a happy accident that software engineers are paid so well (relatively). I suppose I just assumed all MSc fields are roughly equal and quite acceptable as far as salary goes.

Also, it is not just about me being able to afford a proper lifestyle. I want the people with less paying jobs which are still considered vital (caretakers for instance) to also have a nice life without too much worry or abhorrent poverty.

The US is very individualistic in comparison, and in my opinion it is not doing well in this regard. Things like crime, violence etc all increase when people are pushed into poverty.

Wealth should not be the absolute measure of a person in society, because that would mean the market would decide the value a person brings to society, which is the wrong take on things in my opinion. Mainly because not everything should be handled by the free market. (healthcare for instance, should not be dictated by market forces).

Well said. Obviously I wouldn't mind earning more, it goes without saying. But I do appreciate the fact that my siblings, nieces and nephews can have a humane life at whatever their profession is, and can study to their full potential regardless of their parents' income. And that my parents and grandparents can have a dignified life at old age, with proper care and without fear of ending destitute.

You can make a very decent living on an SWE salary in Germany, and still get to live in a social democracy with a stronger emphasis on "social" than the US (i.e., very solid public services like transportation, education or health care) with a work/life balance that's more strongly tilted in favor of "life" than the US, from what I understand. It's a trade-off, but it's worth it for many.

You'd have to tilt a lot more than what Germany does to make it worth it; equivalent healthcare in the US is only €15k in additional costs. (The messy healthcare situation the US is famous for only really affects the poor.)

Not too mention most US software engineers probably have healthcare provided by an employer

It only _directly_ affects the poor- regardless of whether I as can afford these things, it benefits me to live in a society where everyone (including "the poor") is educated to a high standard, is not living in fear of financial distress due to minor illness, and is able to pursue their vocations out of choice rather than necessity

You’re saying it like everyone can’t wait to live in a welfare state and having to provide for the “welfare” of others. I for one am not looking for anything else than good healthcare.

There’s nothing “tilted” for life when you struggle to make ends meet while paying sky-high rent and having no prospects of ever owning your home.

> having to provide for the “welfare” of others.

It's only fair. Once you get old, the young and healthy will pay for your hospital stay, too, through the insurance mix.

But we could also just let you die because you can't pay the treatment.

You'll have to decide, there's no free cake in the end.

I pay for my own healthcare insurance, as healthcare is not free in Germany. So your points are invalid as far as I’m concerned.

Ah, that's fine.

Everybody will also pay for all the infrastructure you might be using and the others not.

Non-welfare states also have infrastructure, so no worry about that.

You know that there's more to the German social insurance system than public health insurance that you profit from now or later.

So it's just lame to frame it like that's the only thing.

Literally "Who would build the roads" lmao

Nah, there's much more than roads in a welfare state.

There's a nationwide pension fund, unemployment "insurance", long-term care insurance and what not. All of this is cross-financed in a mix by everybody who's paying into it.

Also: Lots of people switch from private health insurance back to public health insurance once they get old, because then costs are rising. A welfare state also supports those who have "suddenly" become poor so they had to make that switch... ;-)

Those numbers are normal in the US too for embedded or game software. Faang salaries are at least 20% higher than other software jobs and counting stocks it can be almost triple a salary for a SWE that is outside the west coast SV culture and isn't a quant. For games and some other interesting problems it is a matter of non monetary compensation. But I have no idea why people writing hardware drivers or engine control software make so much less than someone writing some web back end that is mostly gluing bits together. Even MS pays so much less than Amazon its bizarre.

Is it similar for other skilled professionals? What do accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, pilots, physical therapists, etc. make?

In aggregate software engineers don't make less than any of those fields if that is what you are asking.

Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive needed to become a software engineer pursue that field?

Because it's pretty fun, relatively easy if you have knack for it, easier to find a job, and on the whole quite well paid and comfortable work.

What you are not taking into account is that health care costs compared to the US are almost nothing. So is the cost of higher education.

I don't want to rehash the many long debates about whether it's better to be a SWE in Europe or America. There are arguments both ways, and it's been pretty well discussed.

My interest is largely orthogonal to that discussion. Assuming you're not leaving the continent, why would anyone (besides those who are very passionate about software) choose to be a European SWE instead of a European actuary?

Do you only decide on your job for the expected salary?

Because money wasn't the deciding factor? When I became a programmer we didn't have the term software engineer, and we were reviled for our lack of social skills and poorly paid. I miss those days. All my coworkers were motivated by love of the job. If you wanted to make money you went into banking or finance or law.

This argument goes for a lot of jobs btw, not just SWE.

Healthcare is a major example. Most people in the netherlands i know who work in healthcare do so because they want to help people, not to get rich.

Because I'm extremely unpassionate about being an actuary.

It's very hard to compare European and US salaries: in a lot of European countries, you have social security, unemployment and retirement coverage provided by the state and financed by taxes on the salary.

So you have a much lower net amount of cash, but you get real benefits that would be part of your negociation in the US.

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