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Comment by mrcharles | Hacker News Reader

No. Even if it was shared space, it should be possible to, through software and IT, extract the necessary data and bar it from further operation.

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I think it's always important to remember that the first order of business in a raid is to preserve evidence against deletion or modification. This means that their first task is to remove the hardware from anybody's hands but theirs. At which point they can peruse the data as they are able.

Why did they take an entire rack, instead of a few servers? I can think of a couple of potential reasons. - VM's, which could potentially live on any physical server in a VM pool - Insufficient information on which physical servers belong to their suspects - They just don't trust the colo operators to not be involved, and thus limit the suspect data to the servers they provide.

While I wholly agree that it's unfortunate that Instapaper and Pinboard were affected, it's not an unexpected consequence of having your servers alongside (or on the same physical machines) of people you don't know.

No, the first order of business is to stay within the bounds of the law. It does not matter how solid your chain of evidence is if that evidence is illegally obtained.

It's doubtful the evidence was illegally obtained. The warrant was probably for the hardware, and was probably overly broad allowing for the removal of more than was necessary. That's been the routine since at least the mid 90s. There are plenty of cases where the FBI has walked into a data center shown a warrant and walked out with complete racks of equipment most unrelated to their actual search because the warrant allowed them to do so.

If the warrant allows them to do so then yes it is legal although we should hold judges accountable. Voting in responsible judges is more important than legislatures IMHO as they tend to have a more direct impact on our personal lives. That being said I just see a lot of comments mentioning the imperative to preserve evidence and chain of custody which is important but completely subordinate to staying within the bounds of the warrant. Does anyone here know if warrants can be obtained through FOIA requests? I would sure love to see the scope of the one used in this case.

You'll get no argument from me about holding judges accountable it's an interesting issue though. Was the warrant issued by a state or federal judge? Federal judges are appointed for life and not elected so the people can't exactly kick them out of office during the next election.

I don't think the IT skill required to reliably extract evidence from an arbitrary hosting operation (of potentially arbitrary complexity) is simply "on tap" for the FBI.

If you want to say "tough luck that's just what it costs to collect evidence in 2011", fine, but it's probably not fair to say that the FBI should just naturally have that capability.

Yeah well, actions like this give the image of fat guys in suits who hunt and peck at the keyboard and move icons around on the desktop to find where they are hiding that dang data.

Should they get better forensics people? Absolutely.

But, steel yourself: a very good forensics pro would probably have them acquiring expansive warrants for hardware seizures, because very good forensics pros are paid to foresee all the crazy things colluding providers and criminals can do to hide evidence.

In general the FBI is still operating in a pre-datacenter mindset when it comes to evidence acquisition.

It wasn't until 2007 that they updated the Handbook of Forensic Services[1] to no longer require seizing peripherals of suspected evidence. Think about that for a second, that means mice, keyboards, monitors, etc.

The team who worked on this raid ironically is part of the DOD CCC, which is a joint forensic lab setup between the DOD and the FBI (they have two labs, one in Maryland, who would have been involved in this raid, and one in California). That team certainly has some smart folks on it (they're the subject-matter-experts for forensic acquisition at the FBI), but if they've devised special procedures for dealing with datacenter or cloud forensics, they haven't been codified yet into the HFS.

[1] http://www2.fbi.gov/hq/lab/handbook/forensics.pdf

How is the DOD allowed to work on civilian law enforcement in any capacity?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but the Defense Department works with other government agencies and non-governmental agencies; and has for quite a long time.

One of these collaborations is responsible for you being able to type that comment and have it be readable by someone on another computer.

As to the specifics of the DOD CyberCrime center, it was set up in 98 to offer training/services to other law enforcement and counterintelligence agencies.

Basically, someone figured that instead of having to have each seperate agency stumble around in the dark dealing with cyber crime, they could pool resources and try to standardize. It's actually a pretty good example of getting rid of beaurocracy.

I was wondering about the interaction and how it fits with the Posse Comitatus Act.

My guess is that it is exempted by the Military Cooperation with Civilian Law Enforcement Agencies Act[1]

[1]http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sup_01_10_10_A_20_I_30...

Unless you don't trust the hosting provider. Then their best bet is to take down the proper machines.

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