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Comment by tluyben2 | Hacker News Reader

Before Covid I was flying EU<>Asia<>US all the time because clients and partners believed it was really the only way to work and get things across the line. Everything ticked along better and cheaper during Covid, so the assumption that it only would work if we met was essentially wrong for most things (even investments and sales, which the sales peeps really did not expect). So now no-one will be travelling regularly anymore; just once or twice a year to have a drink with everyone in the company and that's it. Not sure how common this is, however friends at companies I know see the same thing.

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It will be interesting to see to what extent work travel is sort of a prisoner's dilemma: if we all just stay home, then, as you say, everything ticks along better and cheaper, but if it benefits someone to "defect" and travel, then everyone will have to travel, even though it's expensive and leads to worse outcomes.

Zoom meetings work because everyone is on Zoom. When it becomes a group in a room and someone on the board, I suspect the dynamic will change.

I could imagine the commenter you're responding to also means the companies you're competing with for sales. Not just employees in the same company.

If a potential customer is pitched by two sales teams, one who “showed commitment by showing up” and were humanized with friendly in-person communication, and another sales team who only called in on Zoom from hundreds/thousands of miles away with 500ms latency for a stale conversation and awkward interruptions, which sales team is likely to get picked all else roughly equal? All of those downsides are currently hand-waived away as unavoidable at the moment, but soon they will be blamed on the party who isn’t willing to travel.

> “showed commitment by showing up”

Societal Proof of Work. I don't disagree. Just interesting how much deliberate waste is demanded by society as proof of something.

Yep. Part of the reason I put it in quotes is because I felt a little gross saying it myself :)

> Societal Proof of Work

Counterfactual: I like spending time with people. If someone winds up around me, integrates into my social life, notices little things about my work habits and preferences, I will favor them. It’s not a dick waiving contest as much as a priority one.

Lots, I suspect. If you've ever worked for a large corporation, or even a SME whose growth in process has outstripped revenue and innovation growth, you've probably seen plenty of examples where the proof of work is as important - or more important - than the work itself.

I could cite a number of examples from my own career but, without naming names, one in particular stands out: a company that, at least for a time, developed an absolute obsession with Toyota-style whiteboards and A3 reports where - again, at least for a time - it became more important to deliver a good whiteboard presentation and A3 report than to deliver real value by doing the real work.

Every Wednesday there would be this monstrous and disruptive jamboree where the CEO and a dozen or two hangers-on would tour the office for half a day reviewing whiteboards for various parts of the business in rotation. It was a colossal waste of time for all involved and led to some of the least helpful and relevant examples of drive-by management I've ever seen, even years later.

Bear in mind the company was ~250 employees at the time and you'll form an idea of how wasteful this all was, especially when preparation time is taken into account. The irony of this all being based on Toyota's "lean" manufacturing processes shouldn't be lost on anyone.

This was many years ago though, and I believe they've moved past it. This story isn't particularly intended as a criticism of them either: I've certainly disappeared down my own share of pointless rabbit holes at times, hopefully learning from the experience along the way.

Finally, as a counterpoint, I wouldn't say there's nothing of value in the Toyota approach. Far from it. Nowadays - different company, obviously - I deliver a PDCA style report to the board on a weekly basis but my target is that it should take me no longer than 15 minutes to complete, and I certainly don't drag my whole team into any kind of regular dog and pony show. It is however a quick, easy way of letting people know how things are going, and ensuring that any problems (and solutions) are surfaced.

I agree; even I, a tech person who does quite a bit of (pre)sales thinks that. But it did work fine in 2020. I believe sales will go back to travelling, but many other roles that 'did not work if not in person' or 'where less inefficient remotely' seem to work fine remotely and might stay remotely (for many reasons).

That's fair, although it's also possible that the way business is done could change (in fact, I think it has already been changing for at least a few decades, thanks to videoconferencing and telecommunications).

Having sales teams available to receive inquiries and to chat, and having marketing materials (that, at least in the case of software, closely resemble documentation) accessible openly shifts more of the relationship-building responsibility (and opportunity) towards the client.

And sure, latency and interruptions can be annoying. As can noises and distractions during in-person meetings. Good humour and offering ideas and suggestions for improvements are part of relationship building. Let's hope that connectivity and reliability continues to advance at the same time as well.

Not every company adheres to the work from home order here in Belgium. Office workers are pushed to come to the office, and I see a lot of traffic on the roads, almost pre-pandemic levels. As fat as I understand, the number of decision-makers who don’t believe in remote work is quite high.

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