Hacker News Reader

Comment by crazygringo | Hacker News Reader

And still no support for spatial audio with AirPods Pro?

I continue to be mystified why spatial audio only works for watching movies on iOS devices. I know the official explanation is that the host device needs an accelerometer and gyroscope... but Apple TV's tend to stay still, you know.

It baffles me why you can get amazing spatial audio watching a movie on a tiny screen... or regular stereo audio watching a movie on an amazing huge TV... but not together.

(And if you haven't tried spatial audio with content that supports it, you should -- it really is stunning, kind of like the difference in going from black-and-white movies to color movies, only for your ears.)

View on HN

Taking a random guess, I think it’s because the location of the AppleTV doesn’t help identify the location of the actual screen. There would need to be some awkward configuration step (redone every time the AppleTV or screen moves) that Apple just wouldn’t ask its customers to do.

Perhaps Apple will release an accessory that attaches to the TV itself.

Or maybe… a TV! I mean at this point it all but certain they will converge on an all in one unit. It just needs to pack enough differentiators into it

You don't really need an awkward configuration step, though, because you can rely on the fact that users are usually looking at the screen. Just take the median orientation of the earbuds over time, and you're configured.

You can also rely on the fact that the user is almost certainly looking directly at the screen every time they navigate the UX with the remote.

This gives you direction but not distance.

In my testing with spatial audio, the effect doesn't seem to change with distance, so I think direction is all it relies on.

I could be wrong though, it might be doing something subtle. But even if it were, it would still be fine to fall back to a default distance of 2m or something.

Fair enough!

When I use spatial audio on my 2019 ipad it works like that. If I move my head to the side for a while, it "reorients", and now the audio comes from a point in the air next to the ipad.

Oh, I love this line of thought! However, I'd switch it to be multi-modal, i.e. not just "median orientation of earbuds over time", but also ___.

Specifically, one more example, people need to use their AirPods with a TV because the rest of the household needs quiet. However, there are typically speakers already set up "correctly" oriented (especially with surround sound).

The AppleTV and AirPods could automatically communicate through the individual speakers (at frequencies we can't hear), to correlate the user's location/orientation in relation with the "optimal sitting spot, based on audio".

I wonder if a U1 UWB chip be precise enough to detect if if the ATV has moved. Using 1 HomePod mini as a reference point, and more precision with more HomePods.

The location of the screen could be learned with some "Apple Magic," i.e. an AR setup process using an iPhone

All they need is a "look at your TV" step. User looks at TV, ATV saves AirPod gyro orientation and you are done. The iPhone/iPad need their orientation because the screen can move at any point...TV's usually don't.

I’m guessing because the vast majority of the market with a 4K Apple TV is not watching in stereo, but in surround with something like Dolby Atmos.

Edit: For those unfamiliar, spatial audio is a post processing effect that attempts to simulate surround, whereas most home theaters are going to be watching material that has discreet location and channel data, meaning a much more realistic surround stage.

A lot of people watch TV/movies at night with headphones instead of speakers, in order not to wake up the kids, grandparents, someone who works early, etc. Especially when you want to fully experience those big loud action sequences without making the house actually rumble.

This is for people when they aren't using their speakers at all.

Edit in response to your edit: I think you may be misunderstanding Apple's spatial audio feature. It's not simulating surround out of stereo audio, it's simulating a sound stage out of the discreet location and channel data you're talking about. It requires surround sound input, it won't operate on stereo input. The surround stage is shockingly realistic if you try it.

It’s still post processing to create a sound stage to a stereo signal. Nothing wrong with that, but for instance if I’m watching a movie on an iPhone or something, I’m assuming I can’t get the true audio experience of the film.

When it’s a movie I really am into, then I’m going to watch it in full surround, with discreet speakers. 7.1 to stereo headphones is always a compromise whether it’s Apple spatial audio, or Dolby Atmos for Headphones.

And absolutely I get your point, that it’s great for watching it at night. I’m just guessing their market for 4K Apple TV is more home theater people.

Usually when I’m watching at night with headphones I’ll be on the iPad.

Again it’s not that I don’t see the use case, I just wouldn’t call it “baffling” since the market is a little different.

> I’m just guessing their market for 4K Apple TV is more home theater people.

Nope, it's just average people with TV's in their living rooms. Apple TV (even the 4K version) is just an average consumer product.

And at least for non-tech people I know who have families, watching Apple TV at night with Airpods is super common.

I’m not sure about that. The average person uses the TV’s built in software and streaming features for the most part.

According to this analysis AppleTV is a pretty niche product especially given its price point.

https://9to5mac.com/2020/09/02/apple-tv-market-share-report/

I haven’t done the research, but I’m guessing Apple has. And my guess is that the market share using AirPods on iOS vastly outstrips those who use it on AppleTV.

Again I’m not saying that it wouldn’t be a nice feature; but I just wouldn’t say it’s baffling. Apple is a fairly smart company... I’m sure they did some sort of cost benefit analysis and decided against it.

> It’s still post processing to create a sound stage to a stereo signal

Your ears are a 'stereo signal' and they work fine for recognizing the sound stage coming out of a 7.1 system. The Airpods are just presenting the same audio information directly to your ears.

Besides, there is a massive difference between Dolby for headphones and spatial audio - standard surround headphones will not give you a fixed sound stage as you move your head. I think you're underestimating the effect, if you haven't tried them.

Even 7.1 speakers simulate input when it comes to positional surround like Dolby Atmos, albeit without the need to do HRTF wizardry/gimmicks.

Plus, the distinguishing feature of the Apple spatial audio implementation is that it has head tracking so that locations correspond to the listening position even when you turn your head. (I think there are Audeze headsets that can do a version of this with PC.)

My speakers accomplish the same feat by being separated from my head :)

Of the households I’ve visited with Apple TV, I’d estimate half have surround (and that’s out of a mostly techy set of people). My impression is that many customers are not interested in setting up a receiver with a dozen wires plugged into it, and soundbars are a growing segment of the market. They “just work”.

> I’m guessing because the vast majority of the market with a 4K Apple TV is not watching in stereo, but in surround with something like Dolby Atmos

I bet a chunk of money it is the exact opposite. I bet for the majority of the market the fanciest thing they have is a soundbar and maybe a subwoofer.

I honestly think the "home theater" market is pretty niche. It requires living conditions that most people simply don't have. You gotta have the right room shape for starters. Virtually every house I visit doesn't have a room that is easy to set surround sound up in.

I mean for Atmos you specifically need speakers placed above the listener. Not to mention a bunch of other speakers everywhere.

I dunno... almost nobody is living an a place amenable to such things. And even if they are, they need to get consent from their significant other to pull it off.

So yeah. I bet maybe 5% of the market has Atmos or any kind of surround sound. 15% tops.

Well they just announced that Spatial Audio works on the new iMac, so I have no idea what's going on.

It's unclear if what they announced includes support for the AirPod-type spatial audio or if it only means they are extending Spatial Audio branding to include the virtual surround feature of the new iMac's speaker array.

It appears to be a "different" spatial audio.

It seems to be attempting to recreate "surround sound" using the iMac's built-in six-speaker system.

Not via connected AirPods, sadly.

Which is definitely more than a little confusing.

Yeah that's the feature that would have sold me both a new Apple TV as well as a new pair of AirPods. As it is now, our current Apple TV and my current Audio Technica BT earbuds work fine.

The entire advantage of Apple is supposed to be that they're one company and all of their products work together, but that's becoming less and less true over time. AirPods and HomePods barely work with Macs compared to how they work with iOS devices. Apple has boasted about how you can fit all of their products on a conference room table, yet they don't actually work together well. What else are they doing with their time?

I use AirPods just fine with Macs. I also easily switch between Mac and iPhone reliably and easily. What particular annoyances are you talking about?

Having spatial audio of the AirPods Max supported on any device you want to watch a movie on?

And up to date, Homepods are not really supported on MacOS, though support seems to be in 11.3.

I recently came over to "Apple"-world after years of listening to all the fanatics/ambassadeurs who proclaims "it just works". I've been using an Apple AIO computer (model Imac 5k) for a couple of years as a web browser, but recently I started the switch from Android eco system and first I bought the "pro" model of their wireless headset just to find out that they worked pretty decently (albeit, overly expensive) as bluetooth headset even to my Sony phone, then I bought the their mobile phone ("12 pro") and also their smartwatch ("series 6").

After I switched from Android I did a reset to my headset and paired it with all my Apple devices. Success rate of switching sound between computer, phone and watch against the headset varies alot. Sometimes it just works but almost half of the times I have to fiddle with sound output in computer to select the "airpods pro" or in the phone to select the bluetooth headset. Not to mention that even directly in the phone I had troubles to answer in Hangouts with sound output/input redirected to the headset, even though it says "Airpods pro" beneath the bluetooth symbol to show it is actively connected to de device. Also in the computer there are several occassions where the "wheel" is spinning, in the attempt to connect to the headset. This thing "it just works" feels like a fraud to me, I can't remember since Android 2.x (I never had the 3.x, only 4.x, 5.x, 6.x, 8.x, 9.x and 10.x) that I had sound/connection issues like this. Although I have not had a bluetooth headset linked between my Linux computers and Android phones, I have shared multipoint bluetooth headsets between two different android phones and switched over without these kind of obstacles I now have.

I agree there is lot to improve. My issues have been mostly with having the Airpod Pro sit in the case for 1-day+ and then take and find out it hasn't charge one of the pods. Case had charged, but it didn't somehow charge the pod.

However my experience with pairing/connect/disconnect has been better than any other brand I have tried. Taking it from the case to trigger the connect has been absolutely ground breaking. I don't particularly care for the Small size, lack of a neck strap or any of those fancy features.

Strange enough, I've had differences in charge level for both "pods" - like 10% difference if I remember correctly, at one or two times. But never that it became an issue for me leaving one pod without power. I'm impressed with the battery times, due to them always beeing charged by the case. That is a neat functionality that works good for me. I just wished that the connect was a seamless experience for me too.

About size, big plus for portability. A tiny minus for the fitting. I would absolutely not trust them during mobility such as running or biking. In that sense my wireless sleep "headphones" from Bose are way better fit with a "wing"/spring on the rear side to secure them.

iOS is the future of the company. Mac will shrink asymptotically as a fraction of their overal R&D investment.

I also find it very weird that they would focus this movie oriented feature on a device that is not great to watch movies.

I had hoped for spatial audio in an updated AppleTV, as I finally want to be able to use that great feature of the Airpods Max. It is strange that Apple creates devices like the Airpods Max and then not support them with their hardware.

The livestream just said the new iMac supports spatial audio.

> The livestream just said the new iMac supports spatial audio.

Isn't GP talking about Apple TVs? Did I miss something?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com