Apple Introduces AirTag
apple.com
apple.com
That's the piece of information I wanted to know first. Devices like this can be built, but those can't run on batteries for a reasonable time frame.
Apple made it practical.
There's a tradeoff in form factor
maybe in the tile slim ones though
Say that to someone traveling for work.
There is so much innovation in science that it never materializes because it is not commercially viable for companies.
Almost any coin.
I'm curious if it would've been technically feasible to have wireless charging on these instead of replaceable battery. Or would that greatly increase the price?
I guess it depends on what you think of as innovation. Their marketing pointed to "scalloped" batteries instead of square so they can take up more empty space (plus the space that would have been used by covering the battery and a fatter connector).
In my experience, their batteries went from 200 charge cycles, about ~4 of battery life, and often failing before reaching it's end of life to 1000 charge cycles, about 8-10hrs of battery life, and rarely getting "service" warnings suggesting replacement. At least last time I needed to swap batteries I just needed a small screwdriver.
I was very concerned when they ditched removable batteries because that was one part I constantly had problems with. Since those issues were address I'm very glad they went that way.
I'm confused, are these standard CR2032 batteries or not? Do I have to buy some special Apple battery?
I feel like this gives far too much credit to Apple. Any one company can "think differently" but Apple shouldn't get the blame for all of the other companies following suit.
Remember the ads Samsung ran before axing the headphone jack a year later?
Apple had (and still have) the status and prestige to do anything and make that a standard. If Huawei/Samsung/etc didn't include chargers, didn't use USB or USB C, changed from 3.5 to some proprietary audio jack first, they would have been ridiculed.
But once Apple changed these things (except luckily the USB), these companies could point out that "Apple does this, so it must be an acceptable idea".
The most annoying thing about this is that they are trying to spin these changes as innovation or something for the environment.
The simple reason is that Apple is the only manufacturer in a specific market. The market for MacOS (or in the case of iDevices, iOS) users.
What that means is that Apple can introduce a pretty shitty change and not lose too many customers to other manufacturers because switching from Apple to another manufacturer is much harder than from Dell to HP.
So, for example, if Dell were to introduce those shitty butterfly keyboards, that were nearly unusable and got spoilt so easily, they would have to change back to their old keyboards within months, unlike Apple, which managed to stick to that design for years and generations of devices without suffering too much.
I use that example because it was an unambiguously worse option, so it nicely illustrates how Apple has a lock-in that others don’t. But Apple can use that lock in to then introduce what are potentially more useful changes (USB2) and/or changes that are not fully baked yet (USB-C), and not suffer the consequences other manufacturers would.
If they make the wrong call, they’ll handle it. Or they won’t and you’ll get burned a little bit.
When Apple makes an obvious error, like with the keyboard, or something external is holding back the quality of the product (recent pre-Apple silicon laptops) you do have to sort of pay attention and if possible steer around the problem.
As an example I largely sidelined the weak 2018 MacBook Air and instead invested in maxing out a Mac Mini. That turned out really well for me.
Sometimes, like with the butterfly keyboard, it feels like Apple does not take enough responsibility for screw ups and take greater measures to make customers whole.
This happened recently for me with the iPhone 12 Magsafe Silicon case, which is a good product but flawed in the context of the iPhone upgrade program.
In that way, I think Apple could and should be much more generous about returning value to its customers instead of to shareholders.
If there were any existential threat to Apple, I’d say it’s the need to reward shareholders instead of customers.
I totally get this interpretation, but I genuinely cannot work out how to tell the difference between this explanation and the alternative explanation that this actually just is what the smartphone market prefers and when given the choice they will choose it.
That would also explain why essentially all competitors copy the change one product cycle after the first company makes the change. Unless you’re suggesting that Apple’s competitors are actually colluding with Apple to remove the headphone jack despite strong market opposition, I really don’t see how you can definitively say that Apple and its competitors aren’t simply making products that most people prefer.
Speak for yourself. The butterfly keyboard is the only laptop keyboard I have ever encountered which I can type on for a full day without flaring RSI. Despite having a fully-loaded 16" with the replacement keyboard, I still use the 4.5-year-old butterfly model for almost everything.
Friends and jumping off bridges and all that.
I get that Apple has immense sway in these marketplaces but I've never gotten a good explanation for why it's Apple's fault when another company makes that same anti-consumer decision. Headphone jacks being the most prominent example.
And not even all the things I listed really annoy me, I have listed examples for things where Apple had to be the first from the established manufacturers. For example the audio jack, I basically never used wired headphones in the last 6 (?) years (since the first time I bought Beats with Bluetooth), so I don't even care.
And when Apple did this, they were able to pack more wattage on their MacBooks, making them last substantially longer on a charge than competitors. Competitors had to do same to eventually catch up.
A bunch of android phones had wireless charging years ago, including one of the nexus devices IIRC. Great! I'll buy a couple of wireless charging pucks and use them. No more flakey USB ports that give up before the phone does.
Apple didn't pick it up.
Android phones all dropped the feature.
Apple picked it up, hyped it, rolled it out.
Android phones started appearing with it again.
It's like Apple has to lead the way, and even useful features can't survive in the android ecosystem without Apple's blessing.
The motorola Nexus 6 had Qi charging in 2014, then that manufacturer seemed to back away from it. Huawei only picked the feature up in 2019 AFAICT, my P20 pro didn't have it.
But yes, it does look like the galaxy phones have had it all along. I wonder why I discounted those?
Well sure nothing “could have happened” without the first company doing it and then the rest of the companies also doing it. But you can’t blame just Apple for an industry wide change. Sure they where the first major company to push a single button mouse, but you can’t blame them for there being no two or three button mice on the market today. That’s not something they made happen, that was an entire industry adopting their practice, and the consumers backing that decision.
It's not about blame - Apple has repeatedly changed the landscape of computing for decades. Mac, modern laptops, iPhone. Downplay their influence if you will, but they have been the harbinger so often before...
Apple was the first to put a trackball in a laptop (though that laptop was, in the rest of its design, at least five years out of date – hardly modern), invented the laptop palm rest, and – much later – was the first to put an Ethernet port in.
I really like the look of this over the tile products personally and it’s “rightly sized” to me. I definitely will see myself owning a few of these air tags
They solved the waterproof phone with a headphone jack many years ago, went with with the craziness of removing it for no reason reason like Samsung and apple, and have since put it back in all of their phones as there hasn't been any noticable improvement in phones that have removed it, but now you have to make sure your headphones are charged.
Newer ones, I don't know. It does look like Apple is starting to move in truth toward the hostility to DIY repair they've always been claimed, in the past often falsely, to display.
It's a shame. I really like the idea of that purple 12 mini - it'd go so well with my fountain pen! But if I can't fix it myself when it needs fixing, that's a much knottier problem.
I suppose if you can't lift 80lbs out of an awkward spot, it's also not user replaceable? The line has to be drawn somewhere.
Funnily, the time for replaceable batteries in phones seems to have arrived, but users are now trained not to expect it.
Sending your phone in for a manufacturer battery replacement after 2 years of use to get a further 2 is a good compromise in my view. My last replacement was about $50.
I have a small one on me always that can charge my phone twice over
Because the obvious issue is that most people won’t.
Supporting 5-10 amps requires very small pins. It's a tiny percentage of the battery size.
> Then there’s the plastic lined battery well, as well as the plastic battery case. It’s not as simple as throwing plastic around a battery and calling it a day.
Yes, those are the layers of plastic I was talking about.
I didn't say you could slap something together in half an hour, I said it would cost close to zero dollars when talking about the per-phone price.
That very last phrase you said a millimeter. None of this will fit in one millimeter, which was my counter.
For the layers of plastic, the battery already has a wrapping, and the phone already has a back. You just have to reinforce the wrapping on the battery. How much thickness do you think that needs? It's definitely not five millimeters.
“It’s two lines of code, how hard can it be?”
More seriously, the cost of designing a battery pack goes way beyond that, just like in software there’s a world of difference between an internal and an external interface. Adding ESD protection for instance can be a headache.
It's absolutely bonkers to suggest a 20-30% increase in total cost that would be driven by design costs; that's more than doubling the entire design budget!
Just as an example, modern batteries require keeping track of a lot of parameters and metrics, and require keeping control of things like cell balancing. Making a battery removable means having to move all this into the pack, which then implies having exposed critical interfaces.
As an example check this device by Texas Instruments: BQ40Z50-R2. This gives you a lot of the functionality to the point that Apple keeps variants of them in current laptops, even if they're not removable anymore.
To make a software equivalent, imagine building an enterprise product that connects to a database, and then being asked to have this link exposed through public APIs. Now you need to consider delightful things like authentication, or being vulnerable to DDoS.
1. That just moves from phone to battery, doesn't it? That's not a cost increase for the bundle.
2. You don't need fancy things like cell balancing for a phone battery.
3. Even with this chip it's $4 BoM for small batches and significantly less in bulk. So that could be a 1% cost increase. So we have that, a thin plastic shell, and a tiny connector. How are we hitting 20-30% increases, hundreds of dollars?
2. You need a lot of fancy things, just not cell balancing. That “battery health indicator” all iphones have, guess where that’s from.
You can take it from someone who has built several devices with replaceable batteries, or we can just keep debating until I’ve fully explain to you how you actually build one of these.
The thing is, I don’t want to waste more time on this, you can do your research on your own, or just keep your preconceptions, whatever floats your boat.
Every phone needs new subassemblies and procedures. For the PCB, you end up with an extra one that's tiny true.
> 2. You need a lot of fancy things, just not cell balancing. That “battery health indicator” all iphones have, guess where that’s from.
Sure, okay.
> You can take it from someone who has built several devices with replaceable batteries, or we can just keep debating until I’ve fully explain to you how you actually build one of these.
> The thing is, I don’t want to waste more time on this, you can do your research on your own, or just keep your preconceptions, whatever floats your boat.
Where would I look?
I'm trying to follow your logic. But you mostly keep naming things phones already have. They already have all this engineering work. They already have the battery chip, it just changes location. And that chip is less than $3.
Could you please give me a couple sentence explanation of how you arrived at 20-30% for a phone that's designed from the start to have a removable battery? You keep nitpicking me for not understanding an argument that you never explained!
My understanding goes something like this: Posit a $600 phone of which $50 is the battery pouch. Remove battery pouch and chip from phone, replace with a connector, phone now costs $550? Add plastic shell and $3 chip and connector and tiny PCB onto the battery pouch. For the total price to rise 20%, doing that has to cost more than $100 and leave you with a battery that costs more than $150. How?
And phones didn't get massively cheaper when they stopped letting you remove batteries...
I do like having a thin phone, but the utility of a replaceable battery has been sorely downplayed over the years.
Yeah it's not free, but it's really nice if you underestimated your battery life since you're not tied to a single spot while charging it.
I realise that capacity is theoretically orthogonal to swappability, but functionally it's relevant because battery casings, compartments, connectors and chassis strengthening elements all take up space that could otherwise go to a larger battery pack.
I swore Tile off when I found out the hard way that the battery gives out a year from time of sale, not from when you activate it.
> What if my battery dies early?
> We do not control the lifespan of your Tile; the battery is guaranteed to last a full year (or 3 years for Sticker and Slim) from your purchase date. Your Tiles are covered for 12 months by our worry-free warranty! If your Tile’s battery dies before a year has passed from the time of purchase, we’ll replace it free of charge. Our Customer Care team would be happy to help you!
low-cost & low-power & high accuracy, not so much
Now most devices use direct voltage, coloumb counting and battery impedance to keep track, and that’s with known batteries.
For a CR2032 specifically, you get a nice smooth drop over at least the last third to quarter of its charge. There's no difficulty in detecting that.
My battery is 80% charged, and then I go outside where it is 10 degC colder. Suddenly my battery voltage drops by 200mV and my battery looks 20% charged
My battery is 80% charged and then I start playing a video. The increased load drops the battery voltage and suddenly my battery looks 20% charged.
More likely because CR batteries don't drop voltage significantly as it discharges. And at full discharge it suddenly drops dead. Which is why it's harder to measure "remaining charge", as that's generally calculated on battery voltage.
> Battery life based on an everyday use of four play sound events and one Precision Finding event per day.
That seems like exceptionally heavy usage to me.
I had a tile and it most assuredly did not have a replacable battery, I had to mill the thing open: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrhM5ujSU6w
Hopefully AirTag opens up their API so Tile can integrate. I’m just assuming AirTag would be slightly more integrated than Tile.
> Conspicuously absent from the list [of third-party products using the Find My network], of course, is Tile. Given their membership in Epic’s Coalition for App Fairness, I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for Apple to promote Tile’s products. And it’s unclear to me whether Tile even wants to be in the Find My app — their spat with Apple is more about their own app competing with Find My, and their accusations that Apple unfairly advantages Find My by not holding it to the same rules as third-party apps that ask for always-on location access. Apple’s solution is this third-party accessory program; Tile’s preferred solution would be Apple allowing Tile’s own app to do everything Find My can do.
https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/04/07/find-my-third-p...
Lithium rechargeable would mean higher price, larger size for equivalent specs, with an added risk of fire!
Anything with non-chargeable batteries is a no go from sustainability perspective
This means that, depending on the circuitry they are not always drop in compatible since the voltages and discharge curves differ
Recall that everything is made out of rearranged earth atoms. So long as you put them back properly, it can be sustainable.
Not only price, but size/weight too. It seems that currently the thing is 99% battery/case/PCB and is designed around the battery. While technically wireless charging is off-the-shelf, incorporating that may have been seen as "too expensive" and/or "too large".
I've been using them for at least the last 2 years.
Ofcourse. User replaceable battery sold seperately made practical by Apple Inc.
At that point, I think making them $25 and having them broadcast every 30 seconds so that they can be found anywhere in the world if someone walks by them with an iPhone is an obviously better solution.
Of course there are wacky solutions, such as using autonomous drones as mobile base stations to find fully passive RFID tags as a home inventory solution. But that introduces a whole host of issues.
I have a fairly good set of in-ear 'phones that I can wear pretty much indefinitely on the ground, but I usually can't get keep them in for more than a couple hours while I'm on a plane. I've tried using different tips for them while on a plane, but nothing works.
$100 for 4 of them sets you back a good amount... especially if you would have otherwise had to toss them after their internal batteries died
Regardless, though, I don't like the idea of a device that's designed to be landfilled every year; replaceable batteries are the right way to go here.
Apple did not invent device trackers with replaceable batteries. Tile has been doing that since 2018 on some of their devices (Basically all except the smallest ones), and I imagine someone else did it before then.
I don't have one so I can't conclusively say either way, but it seems like the only "innovation" Apple can probably claim over Tile is that every iPhone should support the network out of the box (I assume) rather than having to rely only on people who already have the app.
Integration into the Apple ecosystem is another huge one that Tile refused.
Did anyone say Apple was the first to do this? No, no they did not.
So are you saying that nobody is allowed to be praised if it’s been done before? Because that’s what it looks like to me, please correct me if I’m mistaken. Thanks.
As Drake once said: "it ain't about who did it first/ It's about who did it right."
There's nothing wrong with being a fanboy, but don't pretend like you're not fanboying.
Any object moved around by normal use would generate more than enough energy to charge a CR2032's worth in an entire year.
That would make it truly practical by never needing a battery change.
Apple didn't make anything significantly better than the Tile IMO, which also needs batteries to be replaced every year.
It is an agonising death over a period of days/weeks for the child and horrible for the parents to witness. Many times both the parents and medical professionals don't realise what is actually happening to the child until it is too late. There is growing support for much tighter regulations of these batteries and limiting there use overall.
Apple is certainly not the only company who are using them, not by a long shot. But they are not some holy grail of replaceable batteries and it surprising Apple would decide to use them now.
If you are interested ABC in Australia did a rather big report into the increasing incidents of button battery related deaths and injuries, telling the story of families who's lives were turned upside down by them. It is incredibly difficult reading.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-15/button-batteries-land...
[1] https://www.kidsafevic.com.au/product-safety/button-batterie...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-15/button-batteries-land...
https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-welcomes-safety-a...
That ABC article I linked describes a family watching their 14-month old daughter dying over 19 days as the battery literally burns her insides while doctors continue to misdiagnose the problem until its too late. This is not a tragic one off incident, it is occurring repeatedly and will continue to do so if things stay as they are.
Excluding the issue of misdiagnosis, if every case was found by medical practitioner at first sight, there are still major complications and possible surgical intervention required to remove the battery.
These numbers are from a country with a population of 25 million. Im sure the numbers of injuries and deaths are much higher in countries like the US.
Parents should be doing that.
Children can easily ingest objects 2cm in diameter, and batteries that size can be especially dangerous because of how they lodge in the esophagus.
Citing Eck, Langham says, "Clinical outcomes can be determined by assessing the diameter of the button battery, as 90% of all major or fatal outcomes are associated with lithium batteries of 20 to 25 mm in diameter"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7536469/
'RESULTS: All 3 data sets signal worsening outcomes, with a 6.7-fold increase in the percentage of button battery ingestions with major or fatal outcomes from 1985 to 2009 (National Poison Data System). Ingestions of 20- to 25-mm-diameter cells increased from 1% to 18% of ingested button batteries (1990–2008), paralleling the rise in lithium-cell ingestions (1.3% to 24%). Outcomes were significantly worse for large-diameter lithium cells (≥20 mm) and children who were younger than 4 years. The 20-mm lithium cell was implicated in most severe outcomes.'
[1]: https://www.homesafety.se/produkter/ovriga-produkter/smadels...
I would be curious to see how Apple protects the battery compartment of the AirTag, I'm sure they thought about this.
eg, my car key fob needs to be forcefully pulled apart into three pieces before it even hints there's a battery inside.
This. I personally know a parent who lost a child this way. The worst scenario imaginable: the child swallowed a magnet, and then another one a day later. The magnets brought together two sections of their intestine. By the time the problem was serious enough to warrant a visit to the hospital, it was too late.
Be very, very careful with small magnets.
The fact is, kids face many dangers and as a parent you cannot be aware of all of them. So if you’re introduced to a new danger and your reaction is “I didn’t know this, but now that I do I’m immediately making changes to prevent impact of this danger on my kid” that deserves praise. Not cheeky low effort guilt tripping.
I hate the trite “oh, you'll know when you're a parent!” stuff as much as the next person, but… have you met a one-year-old? So curious, and so quick to eat new things: a bad combo if I've ever seen one.
If you were a parent you would know that time is not available to you, that you cant sit and stare at the kids from morning to night. Rent/mortgages need to be paid, cleaning done, food prepared all the things that any person who is a parent is already well aware of. You do your best to protect them, but you are not innately gifted with the ability to see every perceived threat like some robot on the day a child is born.
The fact that it's a recurring problem should be clearly evident that it is not common knowledge, that the warnings are not there to inform parents. People on this thread who I can assume are reasonably smart and don't neglect their children didn't know the danger. So enough already, you're out of your depth on this topic.
So there are no such things as play pens in which you can create a secure and safe area while you are distracted with life?
And my point remains, if you need a warning that eating batteries is dangerous, perhaps wait a few years. The fact that this keeps reoccurring means people aren’t using their brain.
This is your logic. You already failed the test before becoming a parent. You would be a ‘bad parent’ in your own words.
We should adjust our behaves to accomodate companies unsafe products, that’s using your brain.
Source: me, aged nine. (I didn't have the “eat everything” instincts, but I still wanted to know what batteries taste like. Given how much time I spent with my tongue on a battery, I would probably have swallowed a button cell had I had access to one – and that's with warnings about “batteries will burn a hole through your insides” from my parents. Your average one-year-old doesn't stand a chance.)
They don’t realise the danger because there are no warnings, they assume a device is safe as is. Have you not figured that out yet?
The disadvantage is that homebrew don’t get the network effects of a bunch of users who just happen to pass by when you dropped it in the park.
So the trade off is real and depends on how and when you tend to lose things.
They can easily be built for a few bucks. Good profits, and I expect many people will have 5-10 devices, because they're so cheap
This device will be used like find my phone - a removable battery will make it trivial for thieves to disable the tracking.
"An AirTag that has been separated from its owner for a long period of time will make an audible noise when it’s moved, as part of a privacy feature to let you know there’s a tag present."
https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/04/20/moren-fine-prin...
Yes the batteries are replaceable now, for some models, but I even declined to interview there a couple times based on the obtuseness of this product decision. And partnering with HP... not my idea of cool.
But the "anti-stalking" feature will notify someone if an AirTag they don't own appears to be traveling with them.
Does this render it useless for anti-theft, then? Since it will just notify a thief that the bike they just stole is being tracked, and they can look for the AirTag and throw it in the nearest trash can?
Not criticizing Apple here -- anti-stalking is super-important -- but just looking for clarification if this will help you find lost items, but not stolen ones.
They should have been practically begging oems to embed it.
I tried a couple of cheap Tile competitors but they all wanted you to use their apps and thus weren't very valuable. I almost bought some Tile products around the last Apple event in Fall 2020 but waited because I thought AirTags were going to be released then.
I'm still tracker-less so I'll be picking up a 4 pack of these and I am excited to use them. Here in the US at least, Apple has great marketshare to support a service like this and a proven track record with Find My already. I'm planning a cross country road trip that starts in about 2 months, and I'll feel a lot better about not accidentally leaving my wallet behind at campsite or hotel while I'm in a rush to get back on the road. Then, even if I did, all it takes to hopefully get my stuff back is for someone with an iPhone to walk by it to update it's location.
Unless Apple royally screws up this rollout, I don't see how Tile can continue to dominate marketshare for this sector.
Seems like it should be able to detect that it's always traveling together with a single Android phone's WiFi signal, for example.
However it might be better to disconect the speaker which should save lots of energy the peeper would consume otherwise.
I don't think apple checks for the speeker to be connected if the speaker breaks for example it would make the tag unusable resulting in more warrenty complains.
A shame. It would've been cool standing at that conveyor belt at the airport and rather than staring at the luggage as it comes, being able to sense one's own stuff.
Also, seems that it's not suitable for putting on a cat or dog's collar for the same reason.
No, I don't think so.
As I understand it, the idea is that AirTags would only beep if they detect being moved (probably, accelerometer/motion based, as everything else is probably energy cost-prohibitive). So, no, a forgotten keychain left on a table shouldn't beep on its own, unless someone takes it and carries with themselves for some time. It shouldn't even beep if your coworker notices your keys and moves them to another room for safekeeping.
The idea is that it should eventually alert if you put a tag in someone's back pocket and you or they walk away.
Think about a stalker dropping a tracker into the pocket/bag/etc of their victim.
They slip a tracker in their co-worker's bag at the end of the day. Coworker goes home. Attacker knows where they live now.
Or, maybe it's a stranger on the bus. Or in a club.
The victim is likely going to be home in less than a few hours. Perhaps less than an hour.
I could see businesses being a lot more willing to loan equipment for a trial period if they could put a tag on it.
Of course, if the person being stalked wasn't carrying a cell phone, then this raises the possibility the anti-stalking wouldn't be activated.
you're not supposed to put batteries in your luggage
It's hard to make tracking devices hidden. They need to phone home, so that means they emit a signal. Someone can sniff that out using a RF detector. that's why tracking devices tend to be integrated into the product itself (eg. into the ECU for cars, or part of the CPU/motherboard for computers).
They wouldn't because we already have TONS of historical data that thieves don't do that.
I am a motorcycle lover and like every owner of a nice bike I know that apart from properly chaining your bike down the single most effective way of retrieving your bike back is by having a tracker on it. In fact some insurance companies give a big discount if you have a professionally mounted tracker on your bike.
History has shown that despite motorcycles being worth 10-20k thieves still don't go through the effort of locating and removing a GPS tracker. What they do is the following... they steal your bike and only move it like 10 streets further away from its original location into some hidden dark dead end alley where no person would normally go and where the owner wouldn't find it by accident. Then they leave it there standing for like 2 weeks and if nobody comes to pick it up within those 2 weeks then they know there is no GPS tracker at which point they can safely take it back to their garage where it gets dismantled into and rebuild. Otherwise they risk of having their garage being exposed.
Now you might ask why only take it 10 streets further away? Because the easiest way is to cut a chain or some poor security and then wheel it down the road for 5 minutes. Only two weeks later they come with a proper vehicle to transport it away.
So if professional thieves can't be bothered (or is just practically too difficult) to locate a tracker then I'm sure normal opportunistic thieves won't be able either.
Their modus operandi is to throw a bicycle into a truck or van, move them in lots of fifty across state lines, and tear them down to components.
Any trackers will be quickly rendered useless once they're in the van, and immediately found and discarded.
I'm definitely planning on getting Airtags for my bikes, but mostly for amusement and occasionally forgetting where I parked, I don't have much faith in them as an anti-theft device.
You can build a custom LoRa based tracker with 100+km range (line of sight), a van won't disable that. You'll have to use signal triangulation, though, because GPS reception in a van won't be great.
For a custom solution, ExpressLRS [2] is an open source system that can be flashed to FrSky R9mm receivers that you can hack on to add features you want. Or buy Semtech [3] and ESP32 modules and build your own hardware to maximize transmit power (standard hobby receivers only have 25-40mW telemetry)
PS. TTGO LORA32 modules [4] already have ESP32 and Semtech module assembled, only need flashing (again, lower power than a dedicated 30dbm module)
[1] https://www.team-blacksheep.com/products/prod:xf_nano_div_rx
[2] https://github.com/ExpressLRS/ExpressLRS
[1] http://www.phreakmonkey.com/2016/08/towl-telemetry-over-oppo...
still kind of silly since a saddle is an easily stolen part
They do have an easier job, I think, given that bicycles don't usually weigh between 400lb (sports motorcycles) and 900lb (cruisers).
The difference between the GPS and these tags is they actively respond to bluetooth. If you can sniff the bluetooth traffic then you would be able to detect them easily?
Seems feasible that having a sniffer for fancy apple trackers could locate some potentially valuable things to steal.
...putting it in a faraday bag? Since tags are cheap, they can even smash it.
If it's someone's backpack or leather jacket, it won't be obvious in any way if there's an AirTag slid deep into some pocket.
Sure a professional thief might check, but plenty of things are stolen casually by people who simply see something lying around.
>[...] And even if users don’t have an iOS device, an AirTag separated from its owner for an extended period of time will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it. If a user detects an unknown AirTag, they can tap it with their iPhone or NFC-capable device and instructions will guide them to disable the unknown AirTag.
It is better supported on iPhones, but that's acceptable:
>iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn’t with its owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be traveling with them from place to place over time.
I'd like this detection to come in stock Android, similar to how the Contact Tracing thing was shared b/w Apple/Google.
This would be an ideal scenario, even if it took longer to roll out for Android phones thanks to the OS fragmentation
Even if that's not happening, I think its not entirely unreasonable for some reliable third party app to pop up an make disabling the AirTags with an Android device almost as easy as an iPhone.
Tile uses everyone with the tile app installed.
It's not the same by sheer numbers
Imagine I'm some kind of creep looking for victims in a club or whatever. I'm planning to accomplish this by dropping Tiles into their bags.
Statistically, how many Tiles would I need to buy and sneak onto persons in order to have a reasonable chance of snaring a victim who just happens to have the Tile app installed? 50? 100? 1000? Not impossible, but not particularly feasible.
How many AirTags would I need to sneak onto victims? Perhaps only one, if they happen to use their phone in public and I see it's from Apple -- that's something I can tell at a glance, unlike wondering if they have the Tile app installed.
Even a hairbrush: http://www.mccalltech.net/images/0TrackBrush.jpg
What is certain is that we'll see sophisticated modifications to AirTags that (1) disable the beep, (2) disable anti-stalking.
Theoretically remote attestation and self-disabling anti-tamper could be used, but the potential wins for bypassing the Apple protocol are enormous, the Holy Grail of surveillance espionage.
Why are firmware modifications for this "certain" first off?
And what modifications allow this to work as designed without setting off anti-stalking? If you somehow change the ID it's reporting which afaik is a signed value anyways, how are you going to get access to it's location?
If you don't disable anti-stalking then this is no better than run of the mill GPS trackers which can already run for days to weeks
If you can change the ID you can cycle through a list of valid IDs. You can even use it for bit rate comms, ~16 bits an hour or something, which is enough to signal events like "number of iDevices in vicinity", or, if other hardware is used, step count/hour, which works even in GPS denied environments.
The beacon location reported by Find My is generated by the reporting phones' GPS/cellular/wifi location system.
Regular GPS trackers have no means to exfil their data. They don't work in GPS denied environments (poor inside buildings, underground, anywhere a $20 jammer is enabled). OCGs routinely use low power GPS jammers now. Using GPS or 3G requires much more energy, and 3G is easily detected by motivated groups.
So while it might not be great for stalking your partner/ex, it is very tempting for professionals.
... yeah I'm not going to play this game.
Nation states are certainly doing better than AirTags if that's what you're worried about Secret Agent.
Passive trackers will let you pinpoint someone indefinitely.
And someone motivated is going to catch your spurious 3G emissions but miss an AirTag literally designed to be noticable?
Puhlease. If a nation state is chasing you and this is what turns the tides I strongly suggest turning yourself into their embassy now, save yourself the trouble.
Nation states don't have a global network of iPhones.
> Passive trackers will let you pinpoint someone indefinitely.
How?
> Puhlease. If a nation state is chasing you and this is what turns the tides I strongly suggest turning yourself into their embassy now, save yourself the trouble.
"Puhlease" enjoy pretending that nation states are all IDF 8200 elite cyber hackers. The future ubiquity and deniability of these devices will see them feature widely. And some people do need to defend against skilled attackers who can buy custom gear from Shenzhen, and telling them to give up is stupid.
If an actual nation state is out to get you what's so difficult about tracking you from half a mile away? Surely they're not chasing someone who's actively evading them since you think this person won't find an... AirTag. Something that's actively transmitting at regular intervals and has NFC capabilities.
https://marshallradio.com/ww/product/field-marshall-digital-...
> Adding a Field Marshall UHF to your GPS system allows you to precisely locate the transmitter inside GPS denied environments (inside a building, or locate the signals when GPS satellites are blocked), or when the transmitter is in thick cover.
Or attaching a GPS tracker that logs to it's internal storage that they then recover?
> enjoy pretending that nation states are all IDF 8200 elite cyber hackers
You can't even stay internally consistent to your own fantasy. First you're saying these people will crack Apple's state-of-the-art firmware systems on a brand new platform and signing arrangements to boot, now suddenly they're script kiddies?
And honestly it's disgusting how shameless you are about shoving words in my mouth "telling them to give up" where the fuck did I say that?
Go find something useful to do kid.
- How does the anti stalking alert in apartment buildings or people frequently in close proximity for long periods of time?
- Since they considered that this is a risk in the first place then are non Apple users are risk here too? Did they provide appropriate mitigations for them as well?
- What's the future for the Find My network? It would be interesting to standardize and allow for more interoperability in the Find My network.
The other question is: when presented with evidence of stolen property, will the local PD enforce the law and assist with the retrieval of said property?
Tracking with AirTags assumes the thief (or someone closeby) uses an iPhone AND has the 'Fine my' feature activated, which is, given how motorcycle thieves operate in some areas of the world, is relatively unlikely. So you're probably still better off using a GPS+GSM tracker
To be fair when my bicycle was stolen the police did care, but they were quite frank with me about the odds of recovery being virtually zero despite having CCTV of the incident and the getaway vehicle.
Another case of your device working against your interests.
I don't care if you have something to hide or not. This just sucks at a fundamental level.
That’s anti-user. The user is the one trying to do the tracking.
Anyways, I don't think there was ever any intent for AirTags to function as an anti-theft tracking device. Anti-theft is much harder to do well than anti-loss (which is what Apple is targeting), and is very difficult to distinguish from stalkerware for a mass-market product.
which is specifically a problem Apple has had with "Find My", so it's nice to see them taking it seriously here.
Apple's trying to prevent misuse of their device. They want you to use it to find your keys, not your ex. If you consider that an invalid limitation of your device (by notifying your ex that they seem to be carrying an unknown tracker)... well, let's just say I disagree.
And this can be perceived as - arguably - restrictive and user-hostile by some.
Just go buy some other tracker for your cat or whatever.
Everyone has their own needs, requirements and ideas what's essential and what's not. Importance and justifications are subjective matters.
Only thing everyone can certainly agree on that those use cases were not deemed important (or even considered) by Apple, as they would've designed it differently otherwise.
Current GPS collars are absolutely trash (3 day battery life, bulky, etc), this would be about 10,000 times better if effective. But if it starts beeping randomly unprompted and scares the dog, it's a problem.
As far as I can tell from reading the article, all it does is say, "Hey, did you know you've been carrying around a tracker that's not yours?" Your cat or your luggage don't care if you attach a tracker to them. Your ex does.
The anti-stalking feature also seems to contradict its privacy features:
> Bluetooth signal identifiers transmitted by AirTag rotate frequently to prevent unwanted location tracking.
But also, in the next sentence:
> iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn’t with its owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be traveling with them from place to place over time.
If an AirTag is supposed to be "anonymous", then how can a user be informed that this tag has been seen with them over an extended period? This would mean that there is a way to identify a particular AirTag in the first place.
Obviously Apple is internally maintaining an association between the AirTag's permanent identifier, and its current temporary signal identifier.
This isn't E2EE or anything.
"Whether attached to a handbag, keys, backpack, or other items, AirTag taps into the vast, global Find My network1 and can help locate a lost item, all while keeping location data private and anonymous with end-to-end encryption."
I think it's referring to other aspects of the system -- this sentence is specifically referring to location data, not Bluetooth ID's.
In any case, my point remains that obviously Apple has to be internally associating the Bluetooth ID's with owner ID's.
"Only you can see where your AirTag is. Your location data and history are never stored on the AirTag itself. Devices that relay the location of your AirTag also stay anonymous, and that location data is encrypted every step of the way. So not even Apple knows the location of your AirTag or the identity of the device that helps find it."
So no, Apple actively doesn't want to know anything. I'd wager a guess that the airtag query system is using the same kind of method as the COVID tracker API.
Apply this principle to everything apple does and says about privacy and you see it everywhere in their products.
Even more cynically, you can say it's private from their competitors.
I've heard this from a few people recently, but I don't understand the implied criticism. What should Apple do here? Keep my data mostly private but also slip a copy of it to Google and Microsoft?
Obviously not. Through the high purchase price of their products, I'm paying (and trusting) Apple to manage my privacy and keep it private from everyone else. The fact that "everyone" necessarily includes all of Apple's competitors isn't just irrelevant, it's a red herring.
In other instances where Apple does have access to your data, there is a plausible justification for that access and no evidence shown where Apple has ever abused that access for commercial gain.
That is one example of many where apple could do it, but doesn't. To do many things on your apple device requires an apple id, which requires a phone number which is linked to identity. Location services uploads your location to apple constantly via close by wifi APs + GPS location, there is no option to do GPS only location w/ no network activity. All of this info is one secret supoena away to be uploaded to violent people with guns. YOU may trust your nice government, but many do not have the luxury of living in such a nice place.
Over and over again, you see the pattern of apple doing of 'private from everyone, except us'. And not mentioning the 'but us' part.
My guess would be that you, as the tag owner, locally store the master beacon key and can use it to derive key required to decrypt received beacon payloads for your own tags. You can then filter out your own and approximate how many others (which you cannot link over time) you permanently see. If it is more than one most of the time, you’re probably tagged without your consent.
The stalking potential is greatly reduced if the victim has an android as the location will only be sent when its detected by an iphone.
If the stalkee has an android they will never know. Their position will be snitched by every iDevice they come near.
"Lost devices. Devices that determine to be in a lost state start sending out BLE advertisements with a public key to be discovered by finder devices. Devices are considered to be lost when they lose Internet connectivity.
Third-party accessories [6] are small battery-powered devices that can be attached to a personal item and are set up through an owner device.
Accessories are determined to be lost when they lose their BLE connection to the owner device. Finder devices.
Finder devices form the core of the OF network. As of 2020, only iPhones and iPads with a GPS module are offering finder capabilities. Finder devices can discover lost devices and accessories by scanning for BLE advertisements. Upon receiving an OF advertisement, a finder creates an end-to-end encrypted location report that includes its current location and sends it to Apple’s servers."
Elsewhere, it is clear that this operates even when flight mode is enabled.
If you can't stand criticism of Apple, please fuck off back to reddit and fanboi there.
Edit: looks like it doesn't start beeping for three days (though Apple can change this server-side if they decide three days was a bad choice), which seems like way too long. A stalker could probably make good use of this in just a few hours, let alone three days.
Conceivably the beacons co-operate in preventing tracking by conversing with iPhones nearby to store a random code supplied by the phone for a period of time, and allowing any iDevice to ask for the list. If your iDevice sees the same random code it transmitted to a stranger beacon appear in multiple time periods it knows it is colocated.
I would guess that the colocation feature would allow you to track devices actively (tailing someone).
Spies will have to be alert the potential for both exposure and tracking. Hopefully Apple commissions Spy Vs Spy ad campaigns!
Random tags passing by wouldn't maintain the same distance or RSSI, and they wouldn't be spaced perfectly apart in time either.
Of course I'm making assumptions here about the key rotation frequency, or even if it's a regular intervals. I guess if you're spending a lot of time in crowds, the rotating beacon that's with you would be hard to pick out of the myriad other beacons coming within range all the time. ("Was that a key rotation, or another person?")
Also, I wonder if it is a fixed time with no overlap? Because you could certainly track someone, eg through a shopping centre, by seeing when a beacon turns off and then listening to new beacons. Correlation would be trivial. And if the e.g. 30m clock is accurate then you could reidentify hours later by just listening to the rollover time, so they would have to vary the rollover at least.
I wonder about false alarms, because you can easily sit on commuter train for an hour and have someone next to you, even more so for long distance travel.
If they're outside they can get gravely injured as they pass through the smallest holes and cracks. There are very NSFL images of resulting injuries. The collars often lead to suffocation or very bloody scenes - no matter how well they seem to fit.
https://www.pdsa.org.uk/taking-care-of-your-pet/looking-afte...
A related question: can you geofence an airtag so that you are notified if an item leaves an area without you? This could be especially helpful for things like bikes that you would park for long periods of time and would want to know if they’re being moved by someone other than you.
For a stolen item you'd have that much time to track it down.
They could even track if different non-owned tags track the same person to stop stalkers diligent enough to swap these frequently.
It's an impressively good balancing of usefulness and avoiding bad spillover effects.
It would make sense to do the anti stalking
notification after say 4 days
You haven't thought this through! Seriously, the use cases for 96 hours of tracking are frightening.
1. Meet victim in club/bus/supermarket/wherever
2. Drop AirTag in their bag/pocket/whatever.
3. Now you know where they live and/or work assuming they go to one of those places in the next 96 hours.
But of course as I linked in another comment, trackers have been fit into anything and everything now. Hairbrushes, random trinkets like clocks, even a phone charging brick itself
Meet victim in club/bus/supermarket/wherever
I'm not an expert, but I don't think this is how stalking works in practice. People don't stalk random strangers they meet in the supermarket. They stalk former partners, and (more rarely) people they've developed an obsession about. That means the stalker has to worry about being recognized by the victim, and consequently will have fewer opportunities to plant a device and retrieve a device than you imagine.
Furthermore, while being tracked for up to 96 hours indeed is a frightening thought, the typical stalker's goal is to track their victim at all times. Having to plant and retrieve a device at least every four days, without being detected by the victim, makes for a very impractical way to achieve that goal.
I'm not an expert, but I don't think this is how
stalking works in practice. People don't stalk random
strangers they meet in the supermarket. They stalk
former partners, and (more rarely) people they've
developed an obsession about.
However, if not properly safeguarded, this sort of tech clearly can enable some new types of bad behavior.
Ultimately I'm a technology optimist and we shouldn't reject new tech simply because it might be misused. However it's also true that even the most cursory glance at history shows us that just about any new technology is also used for nefarious purposes.
> I talked to folks from Apple today about some of this. The timeout period for when an AirTag will play a sound if separated from its owner is currently three days — but that’s not baked into the AirTags themselves. It’s a server-side setting in the Find My network, so Apple can adjust it if real-world use suggests that three days is too long or too short.
> The “NFC-capable device” thing means Android phones.
https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/04/20/moren-fine-prin...
In fact I would hazard to say most are not.
A few smart thieves will share the tricks. Probably many smart peoples are even going to try building detector devices.
> Available from today (April 7, 2021), the latest VanMoof S3 & X3 bikes will work with Apple’s Find My app, which means you can track your ride securely using the vast and global Find My network, made up of hundreds of millions of Apple devices. With the new Items tab in the Find My app, you can locate your bike on a map from your iPhone, iPad, or Mac.
Vs.
"AirTag notifies bike thief about itself"
For Apple this is a no-brainer.
:`(
Unfortunately, despite being given the exact location, the police weren't interested in picking it up. Luckily it was only a $100 phone, so I wasn't too concerned about getting it back, because nothing good would've come from attempting to recover it myself.
These UWB chips claim to do "X meters away in Y direction". The direction aspect could be revolutionary if it works well. AirTags is the perfect use for it as well.
If the sound is muffled and you can’t hear it, this sounds like it could narrow it down to a specific room or maybe even area of a room. Which is a huge improvement.
I haven’t personally used a Tile before, but my impression was “you get what building it’s in, then have to search everywhere til it’s in earshot”
So Apple's +-30cm does seem to be a fairly major improvement, if true.
Overall, If you have a UWB receiver devices installed ~ every 4-5 meters (15 feet) you can triangulate beacon's position to a pretty precise degree (around 10 cm / 4 inches accuracy). You can even detect the height of a beacon above the floor.
However, triangulation is the key. Often we have to install extra receivers just to deal with big columns and barriers, sources of intense electromagnetism (like big electric engines or microwaves), or some materials (glass doors turned out to be a major problem, wooden doors - not so much).
I'm not sure how accurate a positioning can be with your phone acting as a sole UWB receiver. Clearly Apple can make it work sufficiently well for an everyday use, but it won't be as precise as they show in carefully constructed demos.
two antennas using time of flight to achieve angle of arrival
But maybe that’s just me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go6Hpal8fUA
Incredible that the set ran on hydraulics and actually stretched.
Same kind of thing happened with GPS. I used to pay more attention to maps and really learned streets but now I just expect the phone to solve everything for me. I'm lost without it and I don't like that.
I've learned to appreciate the benefits of a modern society, and I'm ok being pretty screwed if it all magically disappeared without a trace.
We adapt, and that's a good thing.
I haven't been in a fight in close to a decade, but it's not uncommon that I have to get somewhere and don't have access to GPS or Google Maps.
It's more than just a redundant skill. There's evidence to suggest that our reliance on GPS has a negative effect on our hippocampus, in particular our spatial memory. I have a gut feeling the effect is more wide ranging than we'd think; spatial navigation is a problem solving exercise, involving a whole bunch of different mental processes.
I certainly wouldn't go so far as to claim I was disabled, but I find it helps to remember that not everyone has the same capabilities, and what we consider to be a silly "crutch" can be tremendously empowering for others without our capabilities.
Airtags would have found them most likely.
Yes, building in helps. Though it probably opens up a variety of privacy/security failure modes.
First, it allows you to say "find my AirPods" to your phone and the Siri shortcut will launch the tile app and ring your AirPods. Second, the silicon is really grippy so it's far less likely to fall out of your pockets, and third the keychain ring means I can store it on a keyhook by the door which is my system for not loosing my keys in the first place, and usually obviates the need for the Tile:)
I do agree that having the UWB transmitter built into the case would be better provided it doesn't require the case having charge to work, which isn't always going to be true.
https://stream.syscoi.com/2019/05/30/marshall-mcluhan-extens...
Same for street navigation. Whenever I drive somewhere I usually can't afford to waste time learning the roads but on my way back I close Google maps and try to find my way back home which helps.
I also couldn't read a map to save my life but I'm not sure if this is a loss (lacking this abstract tool) or a win (opportunity cost wise).
Edit: Downvoters. I am not doing this obviously. Am asking as this is the clear abuse I see. Tracking people without permission.
I see this as being a weird legal thing we hear about down the road.
and then you can rob the house -or worse- after figuring out their schedule... and it's only $30!
But this also begs the question, if I steal something with an AirTag on it, my iPhone would tell me that the item has an AirTag on it.
>And even if users don’t have an iOS device, an AirTag separated from its owner for an extended period of time will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.
I thought the system was designed in such a way that the data is meaningless to anyone but the owner of the tag, so that third-parties can't learn anything from said data.
The iOS device keeps seeing a random AirTag in close proximity. Even as the ID rotates, it's still about 2m away, and continues to be 2m away as you move. It doesn't know who it belongs to, but it's probably the same physical device, because it keeps going to wherever you're going.
That's a different scenario than the evil store owner who wants to track their customers. In that case, it's just a random procession of tags roaming about the store. A tag arriving at the store on repeated days has nothing to indicate that it's the same one.
So if it's being used as a malicious tracker (hidden in someone's car or purse), then the constant proximity is a clue. But if someone is trying to guess which tag belongs to a specific person, they can't unless they maintain constant contact with that tag over a long timeline. At that point, they can just see you :)
Meanwhile, if you're trying to use these things to track visitors to your store, you're only getting 16 bins of people. My "E" tag will be the same as 50 other people who've visited last week with the same "E" suffix.
I'm having a hard time finding the actual whitepaper on this. Hopefully someone links it in this thread.
The protocol is in Ivan Kristic’s Black Hat 2019 talk: https://i.blackhat.com/USA-19/Thursday/us-19-Krstic-Behind-T...
Finally, the static part of the broadcast doesn’t need to be permanently static. It simply needs to rotate at a period that’s longer than the rest of the public key.
> And even if users don’t have an iOS device, an AirTag separated from its owner for an extended period of time will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.
The evolution will be smarter and stickier the more you invest in the ecosystem
> Of course, if you happen to be with a friend who has an AirTag, or on a train with a whole bunch of people with AirTag, don’t worry. These alerts are triggered only when an AirTag is separated from its owner.
Dunno.
Somehow I don't see this idea working out when law makers start seeing what kind of things this product enables.
That being said, plenty of devices are already available to cheaply track people without them knowing.
It's not for anti-theft
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=S...
Doesn't mention what version, but even with Bluetooth 5.0 the maximum range would be around 400 m/1.000 ft under ideal circumstances.
So the tracking would only work if you actively pursued the target to stay in range.
Probably much more practical to go for an actual GPS-tracker, magnetic versions of those can be bought on Amazon for like 50 bucks.
If you lose a tracked device, you can see its location if a random person’s Internet-enabled iDevice hears any of its chirps. The stranger’s device doing the relaying is unable to decrypt the contents; it just forwards the data to Apple.
Why should I spent my data cost to send beacons for someone else?
I hope it can be disabled.
I guess I could monitor my Bluetooth status more often, but the Control Center toggle (intentionally) doesn’t turn it off entirely...
If your data caps are THAT tight, you might consider a different provider.
> AirTag is also designed with a set of proactive features that discourage unwanted tracking, an industry first. Bluetooth signal identifiers transmitted by AirTag rotate frequently to prevent unwanted location tracking. iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn’t with its owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be traveling with them from place to place over time. And even if users don’t have an iOS device, an AirTag separated from its owner for an extended period of time will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it. If a user detects an unknown AirTag, they can tap it with their iPhone or NFC-capable device and instructions will guide them to disable the unknown AirTag.
So even non-Apple users will get alerted if they're being tracked with it.
"iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn’t with its owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be traveling with them from place to place over time."
If I understand correctly Apple tags solve all of these at once.
I think there is no way to disable that feature, and that's by design.
Depends on how much distance is "separation" I guess, and how close you stick to your dog at all times, heh.
This makes me wonder how long it takes for the iPhone based anti-stalking alerts to kick in. I'm sure this would be shorter, since it can be without too much annoyance. But how much shorter?
For finding a lost pet, you really want something with cell reception and a GPS for real-time location. There's a number of products which specifically provide this, like the Whistle dog tag. Unfortunately, they're bulkier and require relatively frequent charging, but that's the price you pay for that functionality.
We live the mountains with poor coverage and a dog who at one time was a wizard at escaping and getting lost.
Yet we do have people all around, so I think the iphone solution would work, even if it was delayed. At least I would have an idea of where to start searching. I bought every lower than professional level device and they all just didn't work here.
Perhaps intermittently if in a busy urban environment, quickly heading to nil if in a more rural area.
* Constant nudging to buy more with all the usual high-pressure sales patterns (creating urgency, doubt, etc)
* Implies tiles with non-replaceable batteries will stop working after a fixed time (they won't).
Other things:
* The tile network is not as complete as I'd want it to be. I once lost my keys at work, and someone turned them in to security. It took a week before I was able to figure out what happened--I guess neither the finder nor anyone working near the security office had the tile app.
* Fairly high subscription fees for the tiles with replaceable batteries.
* Tiles are fairly thick. Even the new Tile Slim is pretty thick to put in a wallet.
—> wouldnt the battery eventually die? This seems obvious that after some amount of time a non replaceable battery will stop functioning
11 months after activation, the Tile app constantly blasts you with warnings that you need to "Re-tile" and buy a replacement: via email, app notifications, repeated non-dismissable (only "snoozable") in-app alerts, and a lot of doom and gloom UI that presents a false sense of urgency.
The truth is, the battery can last 2 or even 3 years sometimes, and you don't need to be notified by the app when it's dead - you'll know it's dead when it shows up as "not reporting status" despite you knowing where the tile is. So you should be able to tell the Tile app "Yeah, I know it is near end of life, stop bothering me about it" one time, rather than the app acting insane and showing constant notifications/red warning labels/etc.
> Apple-designed AirTag accessories include the Leather Key Ring in Saddle Brown, (PRODUCT)RED, and Baltic Blue for $35 (US); the Leather Loop in Saddle Brown and (PRODUCT)RED for $39 (US); and the Polyurethane Loop in White, Deep Navy, Sunflower, and Electric Orange for $29 (US).
These keyfob holders look like the sort of thing I'd make and sell... probably for the same £ cost as the Apple branded, mass-produced alternatives.
You can go to your local artisan and ask them to craft it from any material you choose. It's not a complicated form to create a slot for.
I guess the integration with Find My app would be pretty convenient but probably not worth the price difference?
I have Samsung, my wife has Apple...so we're sticking with Tile.
The fact that any iPhone (> 11) will ping home with the location of one of these is the croudsourced killer feature in the making for 2 years before release.
I'm in for a 4 pack.
Tile has an ecosystem where other tile users can back to you a tile you reported as lost.
Samsung has their where their SmartTag, anyone with a Samsung phone can report your SmartTag location.
I've never had flakiness with Google's implementaion on iOS. What does Tile need in the background that keeps it from working?
Not sure how widely Tile is used. One issue on iOS with them is that you get these regular prompts ”Tile has been using your location - do you want to disable it”.
Watch does sound like a good fit for kids - enough to get information, but not screen size to lurk on it all day.
Connect that phone to your phone hotspot, so you can turn on your hotspot and, if the phone connects, it's nearby plus you can use Find My to track it from there, play sound... etc.
Bonus if you have access to e.g. XFinity or whichever is the most prevalent free wifi around, so your phone can come online occasionally.
1) does not sound reliable or easy
2) fails open (if something doesn’t happen, that means something bad happened)
My main issue was remembering to charge the old phone every few days as I'm not in need of this regularly, so more of an occasional thing like to an unfamiliar place/country, or on a trip to Disney.
> When I asked Drance about parents using AirTags to track their small children (such as during an outing at an amusement park) or pets (we know you’re up to something shady, Fluffy) she was quick to stress that the company designed the AirTag to track items, not people or pets. If parents would like to safely track their young children, she suggests an Apple Watch with Family Setup might be a better choice.
> As for strapping an AirTag to a pet, Drance says, “If people do that, they just have to make sure that their moving pet gets into range of a device in the Find My network” so its location can be tracked.
-- https://www.fastcompany.com/90628073/apple-airtag-privacy-se...
The deciding factor would be the responsiveness of a lookup. How quick can one locate the tag when it is out of reach of your iPhone and needs to be located through the "public network"?
Or you go on vacation, give some keys to a friend/neighbor to dog sit, house sit...and it starts beeping.
Good intentions - but lots of questions for sure.
Wasn’t wheels of Zeus a similar idea way back when, just never executed?
EDIT: Thank you for all the suggestions!
I'm aware that this is possible from another iPhone or iWatch or iPad -- this is the current workflow. Use my phone or take the ipad away from the kids to play the beep. Is a button on the wall too much to ask for?
I've actually experimented with the iCloud API to try to get this functionality to work, but it's not a supported API so I run into the uncrossable chasm of "put your password in this python file and voila!".
If they can do it, maybe that means that Apple intends to open up the API, which means I can do my Raspberry PI button to get things working.
The big benefit is there are more people with iPhones than there are people with iPhones+android who are running the tile app.
Tile also has two useful form factors: a wallet-sized flat one and a tiny button for things like TV remotes.
If Tile didn't have replaceable batteries this would be a bigger threat (if you have to replace your tag, there's an opportunity to switch vendors).
Still, I do expect them to crush tile in the long run. Then again I've been surprised Tile has made it this far at all, so they might figure it out.
I had no idea that's how "Find My Phone" worked. I guess I hadn't thought about it.
I wonder what the privacy implications are, how do they (or do they) stop the "Find My network" from tracking units any time all the time?
https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/1000/MA1902/en_US/app...
How do I disable my iPhone being using to relay data?
Apple then shares this data with the US federal government without the requirement for a warrant, whenever they ask via a FISA request. No probable cause of criminal activity is required: it can be used for pure fishing expeditions, or parallel construction.
I don't think it's reasonable that using the GPS functionality in my device also means the device manufacturer should perpetually receive a real-time log of everywhere my device goes that is then made available to federal investigators whenever they wish to see it.
The legal definition of a warrant is a written order issued by a judicial officer or other authorized person for the purpose of the administration of justice.
A written request by the FISA court, which is staffed by eleven federal district court judges, is de facto a warrant.
What I think you really object to is the authority and accountability of the FISA court. In particular, the conditions under which such warrants are issued. But that is a problem with the FISA court, not the companies that receive the warrants.
In Apple's case, they even preserve vulnerabilities in the system to aid the state in exploiting this circumstance.
It's to the point now where it's not inaccurate to point out that almost all Apple devices function as an extended sensor network for US federal police and military intelligence, given that a) they can access the data at any time and b) Apple makes sure not to secure the data from this illegal intrusion.
If you look at the history, and I think you are referring to iCloud data, Apple designed a way to protect existing iCloud data. From what has been published, Apple made a mistake in letting the US Government know in advance -- before the software was released.
Because Apple then did not continue and protect the data, the story was spun, by "the media", that Apple has somehow "collaborated" with allowing data collection. I don't think that is the true story.
If you look at every other new product or service that has been introduced even before and after the iCloud backup incident, privacy and not being able to obtain data is / was an inherent feature.
What I think most likely happened with iCloud data is that Apple was "coerced" into capitulation -- explicitly not collaboration. A threat was made, if you go forward with your plan, we will do this.
What was the threat? Something possible - Apple ships devices that depend on strong encryption. Strong encryption is still regulated by the US Commerce department -- a US Government agency.
Even the most recent event when OCSP checks failed -- the developer certificate ID check, Apple's response was to say that they stopped logging the IP addresses. This was also mis-represented, likely by folks that did / do not understand that OCSP requests are made via HTTP requests and almost every HTTP server, by default, logs the client IP address. You have to actively not log the addresses -- which is what Apple's apology statement said they changed.
Yes, all mobile manufacturers seed their AGPS databases from phones they control. Basically sending data that tells them what SSIDs are visible at certain locations.
But I'm pretty sure Apple is actively not combining that data with your identity. They have zero reason to do that.
Whether Apple runs a join on this data in their databases or not is irrelevant.
Apple just printed a $B business by figuring out how to monetize pets.
Every Tile device we've had has broken within 3 months. Normally literally falling to pieces. Have been through 10 of them. Would be fine if they were cheap, but they're really not...
Let's hope Apple raises standards / increases competition with this release!
Samsung will release the STag soon though :)
What I listed is probably the best case scenario. If it had 1 or more of the things I was looking for - I would consider it.
I will add "one more thing"... recharges wirelessly so that if it is on my dog, and I have the charger near his bed... way cool.
I know that others have mentioned that no location data is stored on the device, but what if I want to use it to see lat/long data points over time, like a time series device, is this possible?
Crazy to think my cat's privacy is being proactively protected by Apple haha
It sure is getting hard to find a way to perform intelligence operations on my cat's secret business....
No data is stored on the device, because the device doesn't know where it is :)
It's just a beacon shouting "I'M HERE" at certain intervals. If an iDevice spots the shout, it'll add a GPS location to the message and send it to Apple.
(Yes there's a bunch of encryption and changing IDs too, but that's the basic idea)
Depends where in the Bay Area - it's a big place with a diverse grouping of cities. My local PD would definitely retrieve a stolen item if it were airtagged, but I imagine Oakland and San Jose would be a very different case.
"AirTag is designed from the ground up to keep location data private and secure. No location data or location history is physically stored inside AirTag. Communication with the Find My network is end-to-end encrypted so that only the owner of a device has access to its location data, and no one, including Apple, knows the identity or location of any device that helped find it. "
No, they can't. Only your device can decrypt the beacon info, and Apple doesn't store location data.
Like anything that's centralized in the cloud, not only can law enforcement subpoena the provider for your data, they can subpoena your data without you ever being notified of the fact.
Page 139 onwards is the FindMy network security stuff. Apple actively doesn't want to know where your shit is. This is similar to the COVID tracking stuff Google and Apple are running.
What kind of other things would you put this on?
Find my is a great app that I use even to locate my devices in my own house.
Source: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/04/20/siri-remote-no-u1-chip/
Peer to peer item discovery! Very cool. Just waiting for a 0-day that let's you find everybody else's things though.
its the same reason i could never get into any of that iot stuff since they mostly rely on batteries. its just plain absurd when you work out how many you would go through in your lifetime and is its crazy to think that everyone else would be doing the same thing.
I feel like this is going to be quickly reverse-engineered by those with SDRs sitting on their desks right now...
https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/03/04/researchers-rever...
Adding a $30 device to your cat doesn't make the cat markedly more at risk.
1) keep cat indoors
There is no step 2.
Would it be possible to send a custom payload? E.g. with a status report (battery percentage, etc.)
Are you referring to some other beacon tracker that's more popular that I have never heard of?
Anyone who is "bothered by this", would buy the ones that have replaceable batteries like I did.
I'd install one in my grandma if it could be implanted :D
I don't use keys anymore. I can get into my car and house with my phone.
However, once covid ends I would consider buying one of these for my laptop bag.
Oh no, someone has hacked Apple's website and is playing a prank on them.
Imagine you are travelling with lots of bags, maybe you are on a photo shoot or you are a roadie travelling with a band.
- bag goes out of range - bag back in range - bag motionless - bag moving at more than 20 km/hour
That sort of thing.
You could build some cool apps for moving with stuff efficiently. Assign items to people on the fly, maybe a Siri type interface.
[1]https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/find-your-parked-car-...
But good tip, thanks.
Interesting to see what looks like a typo "(PRODUCT)RED" in an Apple press release.
If so, they might be in a legal grey area.
Platform owner, that has deep insights into other products on it, and their revenue, is creating competing product, that’s utilizing api and privileges that others cannot. And utilizing platform they own to push this product to users, without having to pay for it.
also > that’s utilizing api and privileges that others cannot
Apple is allowing third party device makers to integrate with the find my system. What’s the difference between apple
All of those things are done for good of the platform, to limit abuse form other apps, sure. But it’s also conveniently giving apple’s products unfair advantage.
I know the tech exists other places, but making it so common place and cheap makes me nervous.
Would love it if I could press a button and all the AirTags in range of my Bluetooth would make themselves known.
Here, I'll paste the relevant part for you:
"AirTag is also designed with a set of proactive features that discourage unwanted tracking, an industry first. Bluetooth signal identifiers transmitted by AirTag rotate frequently to prevent unwanted location tracking. iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn’t with its owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be traveling with them from place to place over time. And even if users don’t have an iOS device, an AirTag separated from its owner for an extended period of time will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it. If a user detects an unknown AirTag, they can tap it with their iPhone or NFC-capable device and instructions will guide them to disable the unknown AirTag."
Then you just have to wait 6 weeks for shipping
Someone help me undertand, it's a genuine question.
"If AirTag is separated from its owner and out of Bluetooth range, the Find My network can help track it down. The Find My network is approaching a billion Apple devices and can detect Bluetooth signals from a lost AirTag and relay the location back to its owner, all in the background, anonymously and privately."
And before you fly off the handle about privacy: yes it is secure, yes it is encrypted, no Apple doesn't know where your shit is either.
(+ privacy and encryption ofc)
Similar to the hub-bub raised of Alexa devices "sharing" internet connectivity.
1. No informed consent that your device can do this
2. No positive consent to use it
3. No positive consent to allow others to use it on your behalf
4. Who controls the spy network?
5. They are using your bandwidth and device (similar to theft of resources, albeit trivial amounts)Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the updates, but I'd also like to maximize the battery life.
I buy that there are more expensive things you can do with your phone, but even if turning off Bluetooth is only giving you back a small percentage of your total battery usage, that might genuinely be noticeable on an older device with an older battery.
Think of all the interesting things you could do with a worldwide bluetooth mesh network, and they choose to use it for surveillance. Lol.
It will use iPhones that are nearby to relay location information.
This claims the UWB is at 6 and 8 GHz, but they fail to show the antennas.
https://www.techinsights.com/blog/apple-iphone-11-pro-max-te...
Now we see that Apple patents slot antennas; what a load of shit:
https://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2020/08/apple-p...
Here's this sort of neat thing that is a high-tech fix to a really minor problem but that opens up a whole new attack surface and makes problems for everybody. I.e. your personal need to track a few items makes the commons worse for everyone.
I don't see myself spending $30 to find my keys in my key jar that costed $3...
AirTags on a stolen vehicle
AirTags on a VIP
Apple's data about AirTag logs - when was Apple device X next to AirTag Y..
I also wonder what happens if you have a device that repeatedly calls the AirTag to drain the battery..
Apple then doesn’t even know the location. The lost-phone-owner decrypts it.
No, honestly, this is a bit concerning, isn't it?
I don't have iOS devices.
> And even if users don’t have an iOS device, an AirTag separated from its owner for an extended period of time will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.
What is the definition of an extended period of time? One week? Two?
If it does not beep on my drive then it is still possible for your neighbor to track you as when you come home it would trigger the "owner is near".
Sticking with Tile, which is cross platform, thank you very much.
I am sorry but I couldn't stop laughing. How exactly is this private and secure? Only you know and a trillion dollar company :-)
I would buy something like this if I could self host the server and it could operate on virtual LAN. But letting foreign company with questionable ethics know where is the stuff that I love?
Ditto for jealous spouses (secret tracer in the trunk anyone?).
Because too many people's first thought is to stalk\track people secretly.
Technology isn't the problem, people are!