Edit: confirmed (warning: video shows a child being injured): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onXNnlCYJ4Y
In industry, this is called an unguarded pinch point. Classic cause of injuries and amputations. It's an OSHA violation in an industrial operation.
Every other treadmill I've ever seen had substantial guarding around the pinch points.
OSHA: "1910.211(d)(44): 'Pinch point' means any point other than the point of operation at which it is possible for a part of the body to be caught between the moving parts of a press or auxiliary equipment, or between moving and stationary parts of a press or auxiliary equipment or between the material and moving part or parts of the press or auxiliary equipment."
[1] https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1e...
Thousands of non functional products can ruin the company while this event could be explained with “Don’t allow children around running and dangerous equipment.” You wouldn’t allow small children around a running lawn mower or car and a treadmill requires the same level of respect.
The peloton in the video has no protection to prevent dragging something underneath it, and just kept going as it dragged the kid under it. The motor stalled, locking the kid, then started dragging again as soon as the kid managed to almost get free.
None of this excuses Peloton. This is a uniquely dangerous treadmill due to its large diameter rollers and deck height.
All it needs is a guard under the deck and a better safety key mechanism.
Remember that on a treadmill you are running in place. You don't actually have any forward momentum, so you don't have to worry about slamming into the console at 8 mph. It's not like if you were running outdoors and someone suddenly put an obstacle a few feet in front of you.
You should just have maybe a little stumble, at most requiring that you use the rails to steady yourself.
Here's a video of someone running when power was cut to their gym [1]. The power goes out at 1:07.
It's probably worth actually testing this at various speeds working up to your normal maximum speed. I've done that (although I just do fast walks, not running) because one of the reasons I might be on the treadmill instead of outside is bad weather, which is sometimes accompanied by power failures, and I wanted to know if I should avoid the treadmill during those times.
The deaths will probably have been from crushing.
Here the force is the weight of the peloton unit, rather than the motor pulling you into a fixed width gap.
Shitty diagram to show what I mean: https://imgur.com/a/TstPxtb
The belt on the peloton doesn’t go inside the device, it runs fully on the outside all the way around and underneath.
Additionally, a sensor on the motor could detect a sudden increase in power required to keep the belt spinning at a particular speed (such as something getting under it). This would trigger an emergency stop and possibly an audible alarm.
Whether or not it is a terrible design, it's common.
My guess is that the Peloton design is more dangerous due to the treads, the thickness overall and how to high it sits off the ground. Perfect design for sucking things under.
It’s poor software.
Example: Old coworker mentioned working on a controller for an airbag. She said the watchdog timeout was set to a shorter period than required to fire the airbag. So if the firmware went off into the weeds the watchdog would fire before the air bag.
My proform doesn't have one? though i always wear the emergency clip on treadmills. cheaper treadmills though motors are super slow to ramp up and down. [2]
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0027/4490/9879/products/TR...
https://res.cloudinary.com/iconfitness/image/upload/f_auto,q...
I always wear the clip i've fallen off a treadmill before didn't get great balance on the hand rails stepping off a sprint.
But...the guards are usually on the bottom, maybe an inch or two from the edge. For anyone standing or sitting near the treadmill they either won't be visible or will only be a little visible--and in the latter case you can still make them hard to spot by making them the same color as the belt.
Only people who lying down on the floor or who are standing or sitting far away in a big room should see them (and again, coloring them the same as the belt can make them harder to notice).
Unless I'm misunderstanding the geometry (I've never seen a Peloton treadmill in person), I don't see how wanting a clean look would lead them to leave off guards.
This thing needs to be banned first, company investigate second. Bet there are email trails from angry engineers telling exactly what most of us say here. The excuse that only few people get killed so its all kumbayah is the most despicable thing a CEO can say. He needs to resign immediately.
My hunch is that the slat based system doesn't allow for guards like most treadmills
First result I got for a slat based treadmill other than the Tread has the same problem: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2559/4942/products/trueform...
To me the thing that makes my heart drop instantly is seeing two small children messing with a treadmill.
An easily deadly combination regardless of guards, to me this is on the same level as leaving kids with heavy machinery.
I stand by saying having the machine powered near kids is already game over. They should maybe add a child-safe mode that requires an additional pin to activate, guards are a red herring here
Of course, I've never seen anyone attach the cord.
Kids of course don't know to use an emergency stop which is why I'm going on and on about maybe not being negligent parents and leaving kids near a piece of power equipment that causes 20k+ injuries a year...
But apparently that's a radical take for HN
Perhaps someone that has used one and can comment on it. I’ve been thinking of replacing my current treadmill with one of these. I don’t have small children or pets, but I’d like to get a safe treadmill if I’m going to buy new one.
There are many models of slatted treadmills and in my shopping I haven't seen one with a guard
It could be a coincidence, a lot of treadmills period don't have guards, but really I think the answer here is maybe making sure kids can't activate it
I was expecting the child standing on it to be the one hurt since at full tilt those could easily catapult a child with deadly force..
That doesn't help if a kid or pet are caught in there while the adult is on the treadmill, especially at higher speeds or when reaction time is slowed due to wearing headphones.
The answer is to install protection. Having slats instead of the classic band doesn't make it impossible to protect that pinch point, rather just makes the machine bulkier (longer) and less aesthetically pleasing. There are plenty of mechanisms and sensors that can detect something being caught in there and immediately stop operation but they cost more.
See the video above, with the small child being slowly pulled under the treadmill. The machine not being able to detect *it lifted off the ground repeatedly while operating" in order to come to a full stop immediately is the kind of thing that happens when half-assed engineers meet half-assed managers, thinking they can make a "full-assed" product.
Why are you acting like this is a binary choice instead of a case where multiple mitigations can try and help make a bad situation slightly less worse?
There are multiple stories of children dying on treadmills without ever leaving the top surface of them. Mike Tyson's daughter died after getting caught in a rope hanging near the machine.
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At the end of the day with you on it or not, if your kids are near the running machine, it's already a dangerous situation and the most important mitigation called "parental supervision" has failed. No other mitigation will change that.
I wonder how long until I get the requisite "have you seen how easily kids escape supervision!" I sure have, and that's why having a system only an adult can activate goes a long way.
I'm a fully grown man with one and I'm certain if I were to put just a single foot on it at full tilt I'd violently injure myself. I can't even imagine what it'd do to a child. A guard wouldn't change that
> that's why having a system only an adult can activate goes a long way.
And I'll just say it again so it's very clear: it doesn't go nearly far enough.
But I want to see a guard behind and under the treadmill so it can't grip and drag anything under it. I want to see sensors that detect when something was grabbed by the belt past a certain point, detect the (sudden) change in drag, detect the inclination of the treadmill, detect and only operate when someone is on the treadmill so that putting "just a single foot on it at full tilt" is simply not possible. When the failsafe is triggered it should cause an immediate but relatively gentle stop and maybe even slowly reverse the direction of the belt for a short time to release whatever was caught.
My cheapo gardening tools make sure they only operate when both my hands are tightly gripping the handles, they detect when something is wrapped around the spinning parts and stop to prevent damage, some even detect if you hold them at the wrong angle and cut power.
The are plenty of engineering solutions to to cover 99.9% of accidental and maybe even intentional misuses. But they cost $10 more and don't look that nice. So killing or injuring a child as a cost of doing business is preferred.
"The answer is to install protection."
Sure sounds like you're saying "the answer" is install protection.
When there is no "the answer" other than "kids and abrasive belts moving at 6 miles an hour don't mix"
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Thats is why I said this is about negligent parents because it is! That child on the top of the treadmill could have easily grasped the nice tactile looking knob on the side of the machine.
They would have been instantly catapulted off the machine at full speed and no guard would have helped.
These machines will launch a grown man off them at just 5 mph, at 8mph he's being chucked clear across into whatever happens to be at the other side of the machine: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/great-scott-dad-rides-laundr... -
Like a Tread has a safety key clipped to you, your "reaction time" would literally be turning your body.
But even that is a red herring: if you're letting your kids near the machine while you're using it and unable to react to them even getting near you, let alone on it, again you're being negligent and no mitigation will change that.
That's not saying there should be no safety features before someone starts misconstruing this comment to say that...but the machine by it's nature exposes its most dangerous surface. It's like if your cheap gardening tool required holding it by the blade to use it, the treadmill belt has to be exposed in large swaths for the thing to work and presents an immediate danger to children.
Like seriously, think of a treadmill as a chainsaw you run on because it's not that far off in terms of power or how many people get hurt by them every single year.
Again treadmills injured over 20 thousand people in one year. 20 thiusand ER visits... if it was as easy to make a treadmill "99.9% safe" as you're handwaving it away to be with grandiose psuedo-political pandering... I'm sure someone would have thought of it.
> When there is no "the answer" other than "kids and abrasive belts moving at 6 miles an hour don't mix"
Kids don't mix with a lot of things that still fill our houses because we designed them to be as safe as they reasonably can. Even your lowly power outlet isn't just 2 hanging wires with a warning post-it because someone smart enough thought it'd be a bad idea to expect humans to not make mistakes. The live wire buried in the wall, holes covered with plastic, fuses or GFCI/RCBO, etc. to keep you safe. Most of your belongings are designed to enforce some safety measures. But a treadmill operating by itself and dancing around the floor while sucking in a child is OK because the parent should have been there?? That's a bad product and an indefensible position.
Engineering for consumer devices has to be done with safety in mind and compensating for the mistakes that the customers will inevitably make. I'll leave this here:
> "It is believed that at least one incident occurred while a parent was running on the treadmill, suggesting that the hazard cannot be avoided simply by locking the device when not in use," the CPSC said.
So with your answer being categorically classified as "not the answer", the big part of the real answer is to install many protections that Peloton and others skimped on. Some of them I listed and would have prevented anyone from being thrown off, or sucked under of the treadmill unless they were going out of their way to achieve this.
> if it was as easy to make a treadmill "99.9% safe" as you're handwaving it away
It is easy to make them safer than they are now. Manufacturers just choose not to because it's cheaper that way, because regulation doesn't force their hand, and because the occasional injury or death is the cost of doing business. And I say this as someone who saw every step of this, from designing and building (up to and including medical devices to give you an idea of my upper limit for safety and caution), to setting the company strategy, in a time when there was no "move fast and break things, we'll just send an OTA to fix it".
You had multiple opportunities to understand the point I'm making very clearly but chose to focus on covering your weak position. That's too bad.
"It's a very small piece" when it literally would have prevented the exact incident linked in this thread that ended up with a child already abrading their face on the top surface before ending up under it.
You can't understand the basic details of the situation so your comments are not worth my time
> "It is believed that at least one incident occurred while a parent was running on the treadmill, suggesting that the hazard cannot be avoided simply by locking the device when not in use," the CPSC said.
A child lock or quick reaction are not enough despite your insistence. Any kind of engineering background, or maybe just common sense, would tell you this. You even accidentally figured it out by noting that a treadmill could hurt an adult if they stepped on it at full tilt. This machine and many others have none of the safety mechanisms and failsafes that needed to make them safe enough to use in a home. They're just made to look pretty and save a buck, so they will kill or injure adults, children, or pets just the same.
Omitting essential safety measures and replacing them with a disclaimer is the hallmark of incompetent engineers. Like replacing the protection in a bathroom outlet with a disclaimer "don't use around water".
I tried taking the best possible interpretation but your comments don't show evidence that you have anything really pertinent to say on the topic, just opinions and guesses that don't stand up to reality. Might be worth it to take your time and understand what I'm saying and that way maybe you'll get something useful out of this conversation.
> > "It is believed that at least one incident occurred while a parent was running on the treadmill, suggesting that the hazard cannot be avoided simply by locking the device when not in use," the CPSC said.
It doesn't take long for a child or small pet to be pulled under and injured even when the adult is on the treadmill. From the video it looks like there's absolutely no mechanism to prevent this, or even detect that it's happening. The treadmill seems to be happily operating without any supervision of any kind, and is lacking even basic fail-safes that should kick in at least when it's lifting off the floor and hopping sideways while still pulling the child under.
When the government has to warn people to stop using your product if there are small children or pets at home you know you have bad engineering and bad management.
I thought young child and big machine was a no brainer
Seems like if a cheap space heater can have switched like this I don’t see why a 34 billion company can’t focus on this to come up with something truest innovative and safe.
Regarding the photo switch. My first thought was that dyson is now counting dust particles 15,000 times a second in a consumer grade battery powered vacuum these guys could do something equally innovative.
Is Peloton even innovating? It’s a treadmill with a big screen on the front.
I haven’t paid too much attention to their products but they always seemed just a fad.
This isn't the same as recalling a car by having owners drive them to the nearest dealership for a modification/repair.
They are advising customers to keep the safety key out of the device to prevent kids from using it. ...and I think that makes sense.
A design change is already made on their newer models, but this sort of issue exists with any treadmill, which is why they all have safety keys.
It’s crazy to think the treadmill has the ability to detect a potentially dangerous situation (the belt is completely jammed). But instead of shutting down, it does everything it can to keep operating and doing as much damage as possible.
Peloton didn’t need to add extra guards or sensors, they just needed someone to program the damn thing to shutdown when it jams. Rather than programming it with some dangerous and stupid auto-unjam sequence.
This is a very naive comment. Substantial damage can be caused prior to the system detecting an error condition; this is no excuse for not having guards.
Look inside a car, and you can find a dozen software based systems designed to make the hardware safer. E.g. Traction control, body stability systems, ABS breaking, software that decides which airbags fire in a collision, lane departure computer vision systems, air pressure alerts, engine control systems that look for unsafe operating conditions etc etc
Ultimately software can be made safe. Long and rigorous software development processes and audit process are what makes it safe.
Ultimately there’s nothing inherently safer about hardware safety systems, they’re engineered and suffer from human error.
Proper risk assessments are always required, and safety systems should be built to match the risk. There’s no one size fits all’s. In Pelotons case, they clearly failed to assess and address the risk properly.
Every treadmill I’m familiar with has a safety key attached to a lanyard that the runner is supposed to attach to their waist band that immediacy pulls the key and deactivates the treadmill if the runner falls.
I don’t know how this treadmill is still operating after the older child gets off. Maybe the key was left in place and the treadmill left turned on but that’s really f’ing dangerous. A modern treadmill should reset itself after a period of non-use and require the key to be removed and re-inserted. That’s in addition to a physical safety guard under the belt this treadmill clearly should have (see my post elsewhere in this thread comparing the size of the Peloton to another premium residential brand).
This Peloton is a death machine. I didn’t realize the CSPC doesn’t have the regulatory authority to force a recall.
ETA: just learned yet another thing. It’s really hard to physically reach the switch to turn it off. The switch is located under the treadmill. Wtf. See the 8 minute mark of this video:
Definitely some changes Peloton can make though.
https://www.landice.com/sites/default/files/90%20SERIES_SERV...
However, compared to those treadmills, the Peloton Tread+ has much larger diameter rollers and step-up height. It's also much heavier (455 lbs vs 340 lbs). It looks uniquely dangerous to me among residential treadmills.
Landice L7 and L8:
https://cdn.sweatband.com/Landice_L9_Club_Pro_Sports_Trainer...
Peloton Tread+:
https://g.foolcdn.com/image/?url=https:%2F%2Fg.foolcdn.com%2...
The Landice can be a threat for a pet or can grab/scratch a foot. The Peloton clearly/visible is higher and a small child can sneak or can be pulled under it.
Most threadmills have it, and it is hard to imagine why a one wouldn't have it.
https://www.landice.com/sites/default/files/Install%20TreadB...
(Aside, but I love that Landice puts their excellent technical documentation online.)
If they also serve a safety purpose, great. (My True has these too, but there's about 2-3" between the horizontal bar and the belt.)
The Peloton Tread+ must have the horizontal structural cross-members inside the belt. They'd have to make the side rails taller to accommodate a safety bar:
https://support.onepeloton.com/hc/en-us/articles/36003593355...
I was expecting it to be a product demo video or something.
He was lucky.
This is a different incident than the one mentioned in the article though. In that incident, the child was "discovered trapped under the machine and not breathing" and was hospitalized with a brain injury.. In this video, the child does get out from under the machine and walks away. Although the only difference between the two incidents is probably the ending... this child could have also easily become trapped.
This is why people who miss WPD on reddit kind of worry me a little. I understand the philosophical side to the argument and all that but it's probably the only stuff online that really sets my caveman-alarm off.
But this actually makes sense.
A child or pet gets in there it really is game over. I can imagine even if an adult somehow slips up that it would be insanely painful and difficult to free yourself -- especially at a running pace.
Crazy to think that someone thought that was a good idea.
If the issue is the guard it's more than just peloton that then needs to revise their design.
What I do find more interesting is how the treadmill is still running even after the other kid gets off. There is a reason a lot treadmills have lanyard that shuts it off.
What a stupid design. They deserve to get sued into oblivion
IMHO that video shows negligence on the part of the parents. There was a camera there but no physical presence. Exercise equipment is dangerous if not used correctly, and although I'm one who doesn't believe in "helicopter parenting", I certainly wouldn't let my kid play with a treadmill with only a camera watching.
We have a Peloton Treadmill (now called the Tread+, but the original one is the same as the Tread+), in fact my wife is running on it right now.
If you do a Google Image Search for "treadmill", you will see most treadmills are belt-style, and often have a metal bar underneath the back, a few inches in. NOT a cover on the back -- the plastic cover is typically on the FRONT of most treadmills, which won't help with things getting sucked underneath at the back, which is where this would happen.
The Tread+ is a "slat style" treadmill similar to something really high end like a $10k+ Woodway, but other brands also sell slatted style treadmills.
It's definitely obvious how something can get sucked under the back of the tread, however I'm not sure how much better having a protective bar is; I really wouldn't want an arm to get sucked between the belt and a protective bar underneath, which is usually at least a few inches from the underside of the belt.
And of course the Tread+ is something like 450lbs; the heavier the treadmill, the more problematic something like this is likely to be.
Having it shut off when something goes under it does't really help; I'm not sure I'd want my kid to get crushed by a stationary treadmill either.
Like most treadmills, the Tread has a safety key which you're supposed to wear (but not everyone does, and of course kids playing on it are not going to). Actually, I just realized the obvious answer is, if you have kids, take the safety key off when you're not using it. But, mistakes happen, and of course something can also get sucked under when a properly trained adult is using the device as well. (One of our cats took a serious blow to the head from the swinging arm of our elliptical, but he was fine; cat.) I definitely wouldn't want anything going under the pedals of our Peloton bike either; metal pedal plus speed plus flywheel mass would be a REALLY bad time.
Back to the Tread, the belt stops if there's no weight on it for "a while" but I'm not sure how long; certainly it takes more than 10 seconds. And, again, you'd be left with a kid trapped under a STOPPED treadmill which is not much better.
There's no particular safety for turning it on. Typically I select my profile on the touchscreen but the knobs on the side to start the belt are active before starting a class. I think they might even be active when the tablet is "on" (tap the power button on the cross bar first) but before choosing a profile.
I suppose a workaround would be to require a login before turning it on, but of course this is a step most other treadmills don't have either.
At least with a stopped treadmill you’re not fighting with the treadmill the escape, and if the belt enters a free running mode when off, then it’ll make it easier to escape.
If you watch the video you can see the kid get trapped by the treadmill and completely stalls the belt. But rather than shutting downs, the treadmill just keeps trying to run forwards. There’s even a moment where the belt runs backwards for a second before it start running forwards again, re-trapping the kid.
That Peloton is even trying to defend itself is asinine. They need to pull this product ASAP.