But it's good to hear that you're seeing a therapist. I didn't figure that one out until my mid 30s
Edit: I'm not one to crab about downvotes, but if y'all downvoting the parent post could kindly quit that. This person has shared some deep vulnerability here, they're asking for help and doing the work. This shit's a process
I upvoted parent/OP's post because I agree with you there.
> Yeah, I'd guess that you're on the spectrum.
Unless you are a psychiatrist who has met with OP in person (well, Zoom, these days, I guess), please don't armchair diagnose someone as being autistic. You have no basis or qualifications for this, and reading a couple posts on HN does not count.
I got the impression they were also on the spectrum and speaking from a place of familiarity. Sure, not a basis for diagnosis, but "I'd guess" isn't a diagnosis. It's a "yeah that seems to line up for me".
People with neurodivergence spot each other whether we want to or mean to or not. It's incredibly delicate bringing it up, but it can be incredibly helpful when someone with like experience says "hey I see a familiar pattern".
You MUST learn how to make friends, how to not upset people, how to be comfortable in social situations and empathy.
To do this I would recommend that you force yourself into social situations regularly. Afterwards spend some time thinking about how the interaction went, especially from the other persons viewpoint, practice empathizing (it is a skill that can be learned and will make you a better more considerate person).
So join several clubs that meets and does something in person. You should have two scheduled social events every week.
Try your best to be aware of peoples feelings and groups social structure so that you can try to not trample all over either.
Going straight to upper management as you described is generally not well accepted and most definitely upsets middle management (the people who would actually hire you).
Basically, realize that the problem is who you are and that you need to become someone else to succeed. Changing your own personality is one of the hardest things one can do, so expect it to take a few years.
I asked people that for a while. Except when one guy responded "It's time to get a watch" lol, I became blushed and kinda embrassed. I saw a comment recommending How to Win Friend and Influence People which I definitely want to read.
Your terminology here says a lot, right?
If you are going to a meetup to meet people, then the whole point is to get to know people. And yes, that will involve them knowing your name, and communicating with you.
To open up your job prospects: realize this is normal and desirable.
Obviously it’s not your technical qualifications but something in the way you approach people in interviews. The fact that you say you had to read how to talk to people at a party and couldn’t figure out how to diverge from doing exactly what you read over and over is what tipped me off to think you may be weirding people out.
Honestly, if you were to say “hey I know I have some weirdness but I have the best intentions”... I personally would appreciate that. The first step is acknowledging that and trying to convince the people you’ll work with that it won’t get in the way.
Also in the future, don’t quit a job if you don’t have a backup just because you wanted to get paid more.
Parties are not really good places to learn social skills, people are generally partially drunk and behave differently than they would anywhere else.
Look at this list of hobbies [1], pick two that you think looks interesting and has a club in your local area. Then join those clubs and show up at every opportunity. If you are asked to join a special event or help out with something or join a forum/chat room then smile and say "yes, I would love to".
Try to stick with the same club for at least a year.
Being, and therefore appearing, genuinely interested in what the other person is saying about themselves creates the best feelings in the world for the other person, and you won't run out of things to talk about.
"You just got a new dog? Cool!"
Then you can ask any follow up question you like.
What kind? What's their name? Where'd you get them from? Do you feed them "people food"?.. etc.
One question at a time of course, and avoid queuing them up in your head. When the other person is talking, try very hard not to think of the next thing you're going to say. If you do that, you'll miss what they're actually saying and eventually say something that makes it clear you weren't listening. Similarly, you'll miss out on each new bit of the conversation, and those new bits are the basis of new, honest, follow up questions.
You don't have to be interested in dogs generally, to be interested in them temporarily. "Being interested, intentionally" is a skill you can improve.
Don't try to direct the flow of the conversation too much either. Go into your next conversation with friends, family, coworkers, or strangers with a truly open mind about what you're going to talk about, with no agenda, and be happy knowing it could change at any time.
Your job is to listen and ask more.
A lot of supposed "conversations" are just two people looking at each other, waiting for their turn to talk. If you're going to do that you might as well each write your sentences down beforehand, exchange them, and then throw them away without reading them.
The truth is, nobody wants to hear what you have to say. They don't want to hear what I have to say. They want to tell you about what's going on in their lives and what's important to them.
If both of you dislike talking about yourselves then try to explain something about a subject that you find interesting.
Edit: I want to add that not liking something does not mean you can't be good at it.
Personally I don’t think I’ve ever really failed when I use this approach. You can go in with something as direct as, “so, what topic would you like to talk about?” And more often than not have a good conversation.
Which parts of it aren't true for you?
Have you found that making extra effort to be interested in the other person's ideas / topics / interests, listening carefully, etc. isn't well received?
Or is "nobody wants to hear what you have to say" not true, because you do care what other people have to say, for example? (Obviously that's great if so)
Or something else?
I ask because I started making that kind of effort a couple years ago, slowly but surely, getting better as I went. I didn't tell anybody, but after about a year one friend was like, "you know, you're interested in what we do and you really care. Nobody else does that." And another friend chimed in and agreed. (And I really do care! Sure it's intentional, but it's like eating healthy food, and then you grow to like it)
They were being serious. So if you believe me when I'm telling you this, it has been true for me and those friends.
I also think it's true that most people are oblivious to the extra mental effort that goes into approaching conversations this way, and just leave thinking "finally, someone who gives my ideas the credit and attention they are due. Now if I could just get everyone else to act that way"
And that's fine with me
I find are two types of people - talkers and non-talkers. There is significant but not complete overlap with introverts and extroverts, but some introverts are talkers if they can get someone who will actually listen - others won't really talk regardless, and really prefer to let the other person carry the conversation (or companionable silence, or end the conversation).
Conversation skills differ depending on the pairing - but everyone appreciates someone who listens to understand, not just waits while thinking about what they will say next.
Talker with another talker - listen, ask occasional questions, and give the other person lots of chances to talk. Reduce how much you share.
Talker with a non-talker: Also listen, ask occasional questions, but don't expect too much response - but keep trying to draw out more & find things the other person wants to talk about. Be willing to carry more than your half of the conversation, but that comes naturally, so be careful not to dominate.
Non-talker with a talker: The talkers will love you if you listen! Be attentive, follow along, give verbal and non-verbal acknowledgements and reactions, ask questions, push yourself to share more and "hold up your end of the conversation".
Non-talker with another non-talker. This is rough. You have to pretend you're a talker and carry more than half the conversation. Share more. Work harder to get questions and listen, consider, and ask follow-up questions. It can be really helpful to have questions and topics prepared in advance (good conversation doesn't have to be extemporaneous).
Bouldering? Ask for beta or work a problem with someone. Top rope or sport? The gym should have a program for people looking for belay partners.
Give it another shot
I would even argue this book can harm your friendships. Really, the whole book is only about friendships that you try to seek value from. That said, there are tons of books worth reading. The therapist can most likely recommend books that are really useful for "homework".
FWIW at some point in my life I also realized I need to improve my social circle and went for asking for the time and all that. Please don't do that, consult with your therapist and just learn by doing otherwise. People tend to think there is one way a person has to be.
Anyways, it's really bad with Covid right now but once that's over, there'll be plenty of opportunity to go to real Meetups, public events and all that.
I don't know what kind of climbing you were doing, but I've found bouldering very social. Bouldering problems are short and very intense so you spend most of your time sitting on the mat resting, which inevitably leads to conversation. If you don't have a group to go with or haven't tried bouldering, but would like to continue climbing, I would recommend taking a group bouldering class or the like once COVID dies down. That's a good way to meet people who like the sport and are the same level as you.
This might be a little presumptuous as I don't know anything about you, but since you're in Texas - church/temple/synagogueetc is also a great option if you want to meet people. People want you to join their church so they will be friendly and make an effort to welcome you. Many churches have coffee or small refreshments after the service just so people can socialize. There may even be programs, planned social activities, bible studies or whatnot for new members. This is my bias but I would go to a non-denominational Christian church, the crowd is likely to be younger, more diverse, more interesting, and the music will sound like it's from this century. If you don't like the people, the particular church, or just simply learn that you don't believe in God, you can always just leave, you have no obligation to stay. I myself don't attend church anymore but I must admit they are astoundingly effective social support structures. If you've ever been curious in any way about religion you might as well try it.
The above comment could almost be a quote from "The Speed of Dark" - a (science) fiction novel by Elizabeth Moon about autism (she has a child on the spectrum).
I've had better luck with do something with a more structured environment. E.g. take an in person class (something not work related. Learn sign language or something) but that takes $$$ and ymmv.
You are right that clubs will feel awkward, for the first 2-3 months anyway. But they will also challenge you to improve your social skills.
Might be tough in the age of covid, but there's lots of socializing and networking opportunities outside traditional interviewing. Meetups could be good, because you'd practice in the context of technical discussions and presenting your skillset, which is sorta like interviewing.
My second piece of advice would be to read How to Win Friends and Influence People. It formally codifies a lot of the unspoken rules that charismatic people take for granted.
I’ll also say I have been where you’re at as you describe. You sound very capable, but you haven’t had the opportunity to thrive. I also had an abusive childhood.
I won’t say what’s important is overcoming all your obstacles and persevering. I’ll say this: you have shown you have a desire for more and you’ve shown you have a capacity for more. I believe you can do it.
I’ll echo one thing other people said but in a different way. I don’t think you should set your sights lower. I think you should consider looking for smaller ponds and see how big a fish you turn out to be. Some of those smaller ponds are wonderful, might even be more wonderful for you than the big ones you’ve looked into.
If you want some FANG interviewing advice or just a general career/life sounding board, feel free to email me at the email on my profile.
this goes for anyone else struggling.
In my experience, this has definitely not been true. People will assume you're being standoffish even though you're just minding your own business, just aren't a very talkative person, are focused on solving a problem, etc.
If you're trying to "play the game," you'll probably be better off (in some sense) spending less time on work and more time being affable.