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Comment by yalogin | Hacker News Reader

I don't see how Peloton is going to win this in the long run. Strategically a bad move IMO. May be because I still see Peloton as more closer to a fad than something sustainable. They did well to make bank at the right time and go public. However its their game to lose. A competitor will do a solid integration with the Apple watch and get promoted in the Apple Store and the site and it will automatically boost their credibility among the same people that buy Pelotons. It will slowly eat away at their base.

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Peloton told The Verge Apple told them to remove it

> The spokesperson also said: “Peloton is committed to bringing the GymKit integration to all workouts and disciplines within Apple’s terms of service,” seemingly suggesting bootcamp workouts didn’t fall under those terms.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/15/22385515/peloton-bike-plu...

I don't understand why the other fitness types ran afoul of the rules... Maybe there wasn't a strict 1-to-1 mapping of activity types which Apple didn't like?

It threatens the Apple ecosystem so this is Apple building a moat

am I understanding this right, that Peloton is making fitness apps instead of using Apple's own fitness app?

You should also consider that Apple might also be moving into the fad-space that Peloton currently exists in.

As in, Apple is extending their moat to eliminate Pelton as a competitor.

Which would be stupid to do this on their part then, because this would be the most obvious argument to open the app markets because it would be classic, if not textbook, anti-trust circumstances.

You realise this is not the first time this has happened?

See for example Spotify

Right but that didn't happen during a period where the US is poised to leverage anti-trust action any moment now against a large portion of the tech industry. Context and timing are important.

Ehhh, they didn't really say that - if they were told directly to remove that ability, one would expect them to come out and say so directly, and not make a wishy-washy statement like the above. Anything that 'seemingly suggests' something can be assumed to have been crafted specifically to suggest it while not telling the full truth.

> Ehhh, they didn't really say that - if they were told directly to remove that ability, one would expect them to come out and say so directly, and not make a wishy-washy statement like the above. Anything that 'seemingly suggests' something can be assumed to have been crafted specifically to suggest it while not telling the full truth.

I owe you a citation for what I'm about to say (or hopefully someone else has a link; my google-fu is failing me), but other devs/founders/etc on HN have noted that Apple also objects to devs calling Apple out for enforcing their own rules.

This would be a subtle way of working around that draconian restriction.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/16/22387412/peloton-apple-wa...

Looks like the "strict 1-to-1 mapping of activity types" is the issue here.

Peloton should definitely try to work with the Apple Watch as best as possible. We are hearing mixed reports on if Apple or Peloton wanted Peloton to pull back on some of the integration.

I recently got a Peloton Bike+, and it is one of the best mixtures of physical and software product I have ever seen. By far the best for anything exercise related.

I had been riding on a basic bike with Apple Fitness+, and I enjoyed it a lot, but the Peloton is next level. For cycling classes, it blows everything out of the water. It doesn't just have the standard music and cycling stuff that Soul Cycle and others made popular in person, it has all of the Power Zone classes that are based on improving your specific fitness levels with data and classes tailored to you.

Have you tried actual cycling products when you say it blows everything out of the water? Like Zwift, Trainerroad, Sufferfest, Rouvy etc? For instance Trainerroad is miles ahead when it comes to structured training with progress.

I should specify hardware and software combined.

Zwift, Trainerroad, etc. are good for people looking to train to become better cyclists. You do largely need to bring your own setup, which can often be complicated (although you can then get a setup that mirrors your outdoor work).

I am referring to fitness training, not training to become a better road cyclist, and I suspect most people that use a Peloton or go to Soul Cycle have no intention of training to become better at road cycling. They are doing so to become fitter, and Peloton's training is specifically aimed at improving various areas of fitness. So when I refer to training, I am referring to training to improve specific fitness goals and not training to become a better cyclist.

I have no interest in becoming a good cyclist, but I am looking to improve my fitness across a variety of metrics. I also weight train and do other stuff, but I have found the Peloton approach to indoor cycling well suited to helping meet specific fitness goals.

I love road cycling but also weight lifting and other stuff. You can perfectly use Zwift just as an indoor fitness trainer. Yes you need a trainer and a used bike that is comfortable for you but a peloton isn’t cheap either and I can stow away my Zwift setup except for the bike of course.

Peloton owner. Long time Zwift user. Have spent a little time each with TR and Sufferfest. Peloton is the most polished experience by an incredibly wide margin. Most people aren't so much looking to be incredible cyclists as they are just wanting to be in shape, and the combination of premium hardware, dead simple interface, and the ever-expanding library of classes across a variety of disciplines is far beyond what most people would ever want/need. I do wish that there were better structured training options within Peloton beyond the intro to power zones program, but I think they could add that fairly easily if there was demand.

When I was training for races I would want to be primarily on my bike, but for just offsetting my Oreo addiction the Peloton is perfect.

My Peloton is one of the best fitness purchases I've made in years. And thats after a couple of years on a Wahoo Kickr Snap and a year on a Wahoo Kickr Core, mostly using Zwift with a bit of TrainerRoad mixed in. The classes on Peloton are just so much fun, motivating and uplifting.

Nothing about your comment per-se, but damn, these company/product names are getting more and more wacky. *Wahoo Kickr Snap* and *Zwift* is something I would only imagine in a cartoon about an imaginary product.

I would consider myself a pretty avid cyclist (annual century ride and 1000+ miles per year). Have done two years on Zwift (Kickr Core) - which I thoroughly enjoy. However my wife just got a peleton a month ago, and partly due to the novelty, partly due to the sheer ease of use I haven't been back on my Zwift set up yet.

I am not giving Peleton the win I am just saying that it is pretty slick interface for getting a work out and making you sweat without the small headaches of integration on Zwift etc. That said - if all I want is to improve my cycling, Peleton doesn't help me in the same way. However if I am trying to stay fit with small workouts and lots of variation in the off season - its perfect.

6 months from now I'll figure out which one gets the W.

Do you have a twitter or a blog where one could follow your progress - I'm the opposite, used to be super into fitness and stopped dead on tracks due to injury, COVID, depression all of which have caused an Insulin resistance. I've gotten my jabs, but would still prefer to return to fitness via a home gym.

Curious to learn more about maximizing the use of a very expensive hardware (for me).

Unfortunately I don't really have any socials outside hackernews. If I was to choose between on of the two of them I would - if I was a heavy cyclist and already had a good road bike Zwift would be the natural route. If I didn't have a road bike and not a heavy cyclists but really enjoy spin classes - I would go for Peleton. If you have more space at home to do a home gym - Peleton has a lot of other classes that you can do as well. Our space is limited so only can do the spin classes.

Yes though your point is taken - this is definitely expensive hardware in both circumstances. Both have addictive (in a good way) qualities to tie you back into coming for more. Normally I would say that as a negative thing but in this instance it is a good thing.

I'd agree with the general tone of a few others here. IMO Peloton and Zwift cater to two different groups although there is some overlap between them.

Peloton caters more to general fitness types with a "spin class" approach using "instructors" and their slick hardware and ecosystem. It's probably a better choice for people who aren't cyclists.

Zwift caters more to dedicated cyclists who typically use Zwift to augment their outdoor training routines with indoor time (avoiding weather and timing/safety issues etc). Cyclists use their own bikes since they're fit for the rider, with their own (more accurate) power meters, etc. Zwift also considers weight, bike aerodynamics, etc. in sort of a "gamified" virtual representation of cycling.

TLDR; Peloton is a group of people riding Peloton machines in "virtual spin class" while Zwift is a group of people riding their own bikes indoors, most who also ride outdoors on Strava.

Its something that annoys the crap out of me with Apple and the marketing of their products. Apple's Fitness+ app markets itself providing an experience like no other workout in the world.

It markets itself as being a master of all trades, jack of none. When it is infact a jack of all trades master of none. For example the cycling workouts are far far behind what Trainerroad, Zwift or Peloton provide, with regards to dynamic workouts based on physiological performance.

Agreed, it's like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

The reality is that Peloton doesn't really have an option, since the competitive advantage is health/exercise data. Allowing Apple continued access to user health data via Apple Watch means Peloton devices will be increasingly viewed as commodities - it's just an exercise bike. Also Apple probably will add spin classes to its Fitness+ service soon, which puts them at a direct competition with Peloton's core revenue stream.

So you either try to stem the bleeding early, or fade slowly into irrelevance as your products become commoditized. Users may love their Pelotons but I'm surmise that they prefer their Apple devices more. It's like users don't care much for their mobile carriers as long as their iPhones are compatible on those carrier networks.

Fitness+ has had spin classes since launch.

Does Apple Watch integration even matter? There's a big HD screen right there on the bike.

Yes. All of my workout related data is on it.

I really don't care what the tool I'm using has as long as it integrates with the Apple Fitness system.

The ability it keep track of all your workouts in the same place is really nice.

A key feature of the Apple Watch is its Apple Health app, which tracks more than just your time on a bike. Peloton locking a portion of your data away from you is going to make it a lot more tempting to switch when you find a bike that integrates with all your other data.

Maybe it could sync via your phone? That's how I sync pretty much everything else I use (garmin and polar)

So the issue then is with Apple Health integration, not with the Apple Watch specifically. Apple Health also runs on other iOS devices and has a back end API.

There are some neat things you can do with the Watch specifically - there's NFC stuff you can do to automatically start a specific workout type when the user taps their watch on a piece of equipment, for instance.

I think there are two (or more) segments of Peloton riders. The data geeks who want to track all of their workouts and metrics, and the casual rider who just wants a convenient way to get some solid exercise without leaving the house. I fall into the casual segment - I ride my Peloton 1-2 times per day, and I don't care about any of my stats, but I love the workout and I love the Peloton instructors. Unless another platform somehow convinces my favorite instructors to leave Peloton then I'm sticking around.

*edit: I also own an Apple watch, but I only use it for tracking # of minutes while running outside. And for telling the time.

If 1-2 times per day is "casual", one can only conclude the hardcore users sleep on the damn thing!

Well I do love fitness! Definitely more than the average person. I just don't care for the metrics.

Same here. I do a lot of bike riding, hiking, canoeing and open water swimming. All this stuff keeps me in very good shape. I look fine I feel even better so do not care bout them metrics.

The thing is incredibly “sticky”. People def use the thing.

Across all of their active subscribers, the average is 21 workouts per month [0]. So that user is technically above-average, but I'm curious what the actual distribution looks like, if it's like a bell curve or more "camel shaped" with a mixture of infrequent users and very frequent users at opposite ends.

I don't own one, but from people I know that do own one, the brand seems very good at turning their customers into that sort of ideal fanatical user. [1]

[0] Q2 2021 shareholder letter p2

https://investor.onepeloton.com/static-files/dd43f8b8-acc9-4...

[1] I don't mean fanatical as an insult to the users :P More power to you if it makes you work out. But for a company a 'multiple times per day' user who is probably also telling friends about the product is the dream.

It’s worth noting that many riders add 5-minute warm-up, cool-down and stretching sessions to their main rides. Peloton counts all of these as separate rides and frequently recommends them. Frustratingly, they also count toward the user ride milestones that take up so much instructor focus during rides (100 rides, 500 rides etc.).

It all seems intentionally designed to juice their engagement data.

This. As a peloton user, I actually wish there was a way to set the system to "ignore" those rides for the purposes of ride count, stats, Strava upload, etc. The warm ups/cool downs are important things to do but it makes for a ton of digital clutter. If I ride 5 days a week that is 15 "activities" minimum.

That being said, most of the more casual users are probably not doing this. I know that most of the people I know/follow on there are doing one or two activities per day of use, and it seems they are a mix of discipline, so like a 20 min ride and then a stretching class or weights.

> if it's like a bell curve or more "camel shaped"

By the way this is generally referred to as a "saddle curve".

But I like the imagery: it would be lovely if "bell" and "saddle" curves were referred to as "dromedary" and "bactrian" curves!

You can (and many Peleton members do) just start a workout on the Apple Watch's Workout app whenever you take a class. It is more or less tracking the same thing, except your workout will show as "Indoor Cycle" or whatever instead of "Alex's 20 minute Hip Hop Ride".

You can also "just" follow a youtube spinning class on a turbo trainer. The point of smart fitness devices is so that I don't have to put my diet, workout and schedule into 3 different tools and merge them myself.

The one thing you lose is heart rate tracking on the Peloton. With GymKit, your Apple Watch tracks your heart rate as you work out and displays it on the screen, along with which heart rate zone you are in (1-5). It shows what percentage of your max heart rate you are using at any one time and gives you a heart rate graph readout when you are done.

You could just use a third party heart rate tracker to accomplish this, but that's one more thing to put on.

You could also use an app like BlueHeart to do it. It fakes a BLE HR tracker on your phone while pulling the data form your watch, so that you still get your HR data on the big screen.

wait, my peloton came with a heart tracker that integrates directly with the peloton. its chest strap model which is supposedly even more accurate.

They sell different packages and some come with a chest strap. I got just the bike and shoes. I already use an Apple Watch to track my heart rate for everything else, and it's been rated as accurate.

But if you got a chest strap with it, that would 100% do the same thing.

I like having one device that tracks my heart rate through all of the activities I do (including sleeping).

The Apple Watch health stuff kind of sucks (the health app itself that can take in/track other data is okay). It sounds like Apple is just blocking Peloton from their fitness competitor bootcamp stuff, but Peloton can still integrate data in Health.

I have a Peloton and Apple Watch, I've historically had a FitBit.

The FitBit would recognize when you were on a run and auto record everything - the Apple Watch can't do this, about 20% of the time it'll ask if you're on a run and makes you confirm that you are (which is easy to miss).

The Fitness app has a bug that suggests nobody even looks at it. If your speed is increasing (you're running faster) and so your mileage time is going down (takes you fewer minutes to run a mile) and that's trending down as a result the App says "oh no you're trending downward" - but obviously in that case getting faster and getting your mileage time down is a good thing.

The Peloton stuff is solid and you can still share it to the health app - real time tracking via the watch doesn't matter that much. Anyone who does actual cycling will have a garmin computer or something anyway.

The Apple Watch fitness stuff is maybe okay for people that don't exercise and just want some walking tracking motivation - it's pretty bad for everything else.

I would say it's the singular most important aspect for a large number of riders. My wife is absolutely obsessed with hitting her numbers everyday. This is all done through the apple watch and Peloton.

The Peloton doesn’t track heart rate without an external Bluetooth monitor. The Apple Watch is one such monitor.

The Apple Watch is a pretty good heart rate monitor, and it brings your Peloton data into the Fitness and Health apps. If you wear and Apple Watch while cycling, your heart rate shows up on the Peloton, and it breaks it down by heart rate zones.

I use an Apple Watch with my Bike+. I only do cycling workouts, so I never noticed this limitation, but it does seem odd.

It's possible that Apple didn't feel some of the data tracking for other activities was particularly accurate. Apple spends millions to test people doing different workouts and to measure the caloric spend, and maybe Apple only thought the data was accurate for cycling. Bootcamp classes in particular are a really nebulous concept.

Apple has workout modes for all different kinds of exercise built into the Apple Watch based on data they have gathered from large samples of test subjects. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple felt the cycling data was accurate, and the other stuff that Peloton was doing a lot less so (and a lot less accurate than popping into a workout mode directly on your Watch).

Peloton is certainly a fad, but Bowflex still exists. The idea that Peloton isn't just an exercise bike with an at home gym subscription, is is highly suspect.

Peloton also has a more of a cult following. A better comparison is probably cross-fit

I don’t disagree, but....

Peloton has freakishly high Net Promoter Score(NPS) from most high paying customers.

The power of belonging, community, and shared effort/mission is incredibly powerful.

Especially in a time of such COVID disconnection.

Peloton as a business against Apple seems insurmountable.

Peloton as a cult/tribe against Apple seems achievable.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Peloton tattoos mirroring Harley-Davidson.

Imo Peloton has more to worry about with Oculus Quest 2 and the upcoming generation of VR

As an owner of both, I can't agree.

Not Peloton but I have smart bike trainer and familiar with related software (zwift, RGT, tacx etc). My experience: using VR set the way they make them now is extremely uncomfortable on a bike trainer. And yes it will drown headset in sweat and kill it in no time.

> And yes it will drown headset in sweat and kill it in no time.

Is this from personal experience or just conjecture? Because this is not common problem. Also this is what towels are for. You can also have interchangeable padding to either be more absorbent of sweat or less depending your preferences.

Are you saying that sweating prefusably on an indoor cycling trainer is not a common problem? I must be misunderstanding.

I'd need to have a couple of these absorbant interchangable sweat pads for an hours workout if I wanted this thing to have any chance of staying in place. And cleaning it afterwards would be a must, even so it sounds absolutely grim after a few uses. Plus they are pretty uncomfortable (my experience). I suppose it might be tolerable if I was just lightly spinning through a magical VR world enjoying the views. But I'd rather be using regular Zwift and getting fit.

>Are you saying that sweating prefusably on an indoor cycling trainer is not a common problem? I must be misunderstanding.

No, I'm saying that lots of sweat will not break a VR system. Personally, I just use a towel on my neck and it's more than good enough VR workouts, but everyone is different

You sweat a lot during exercise. It's literally dripping off my face throughout the exercise. There's no "grabbing a towel to wipe if off" while I'm wearing the headset. The headset will absorb the sweat.

There's an easy solution for this:

1. Momentarily take off your VR headset.

2. Wipe your sweat using the towel on your neck

3. Put your VR HMD back on and continue working out

4. Repeat when sweat becomes an issue again in 30 minutes

> The headset will absorb the sweat.

Not if you add a silicone liner on top of the padding of your VR headset.

It seems like most of the pundits critical of using VR for working out haven't even tried it themselves

>"4. Repeat when sweat becomes an issue again in 30 minutes"

I my case the issue resurfaces in a minute or so.

>"Not if you add a silicone liner on top of the padding of your VR headset"

Actually in my case liner or not any area of my body that is covered sweats.

Anyways your advises sound like I have to bend backwards to make use of that VR. I'll wait till VR does that instead. If not fine with me. I have other things to do.

>"It seems like most of the pundits critical of using VR for working out haven't even tried it themselves"

You are making unfounded assumptions here.

> I my case the issue resurfaces in a minute or so.

You need a VR headset or strap that's easy to take off and put on. They typically operate with a dial on the back. You also probably need to rely on multiple pads that can absorb sweat. Not sure if there are any other solutions to mitigate extremely heavy facial sweating.

I'm a pretty heavy sweater myself, where it feels like the entire top half of my body is drenched in sweat including my face. The only time facial sweat annoys me is when it clouds the VR screens. Otherwise, my ritual works fine since I'm still able to constantly wipe the portion of my face that isnt' covered the VR headset and any other sweat gets caught by the towel on my neck

How would you even know what would happen working out with VR when it seems that you haven't even tried it yet?

> You are making unfounded assumptions here.

It's a pretty healthy assumption when you have commenters here making ridiculous claims like sweat routinely destroying VR headsets. I'm ok with valid criticisms of VR and there are many; I can write a fairly large blog post focusing on just downsides of VR. However, I'm not going to tolerate bad assumptions that aren't based on any real personal experience, or just reality in general

>"How would you even know what would happen working out with VR when it seems that you haven't even tried it yet?"

I tried it. Sorry but I can not tolerate that thing on me while under real physical load. Anyway to each their own. If it works for you - enjoy.

Yes it is a personal experience. I might change my opinion when / if VR headsets will look like a regular glasses so my fan can move the air properly.

As for towels - do you ride while periodically removing your headset and wiping your face? I can't imagine myself doing it. I have giant industrial fan that takes care of a perspiration and which is totally useless if most of my face is covered with that blob of VR set.

Yes, I ride with a towel on my neck and I periodically wipe my face every 30 minutes. Most of my sweat drains into my towel because I use silicone covers over the VR headset padding.

I consider myself a heavy sweater since my shirts are drenched even working without VR

Agreed. There is no way something like this takes off in this segment if it involves something on a rider's face bulkier than a pair of sunglasses. Most people running Zwift in 2021 are doing it on relatively underpowered platforms like appleTV and ipad, so we're no where close to a situation where VR would even be worth the development effort for these companies.

why not?

can you provide your thoughts on this?

I workout with VR daily 1-2 hours. Most of the time it doesn't even feel like heavy cardio because all I'm doing is playing games dodging bullets and swinging swords. There are even VR games for stationary bikes (https://virzoom.com/ & https://www.holodia.com).

VR is more accessible, more flexible, offers a lot more variety, all for a much lower price than Peloton and other similar offerings.

I can't imagine the amount of sweat that comes off my head during a Peloton session being comfortable or safe for the Oculus.

That's an over exaggeration. It's an issue, but it's also safe and comfortable enough. Like with riding a stationary, I just use a towel from time to time. There are other accessories that help too. You should try it before forming such a strong opinion.

You sound like someone who may be in better shape and / or doesn’t sweat a lot.

You definitely wouldn’t want to use an exercise bike after me if you saw what it looked like when I was done, before I wiped it down.

I could very easily be mistaken for having jumped into a lake after I get off the exercise bike. Thoroughly drenched.

I sweat a lot. All of it in the upper body including my face. My shirt is drenched and hard to take off post VR workout, even with a towel hanging from my neck. A VR workout is still doable with heavy sweating; you just have to try it several times before dismissing it.

Thanks for the feedback. To be clear I was saying I couldn't imagine it being "safe" for the Oculus's internal components, not unsafe for myself.

If the Oculus has a level of water resistance to it that means it can take workout sessions from heavy sweaters that is a pleasant surprise!

You can already see the start of this with Beat Saber. Imagine a Peloton, but instead of the 2D workout video, you’re in immersive 3D VR cycling trails. Though Peloton still has like 7 years leeway, they won’t have the VR chops to make it happen and will probably be acquired.

Some commenters think it won’t be the case due to sweat? Good luck betting $100B market cap being stopped by the lack of innovation in preventing sweat issues.

> Imagine a Peloton, but instead of the 2D workout video, you’re in immersive 3D VR cycling trails.

https://virzoom.com/

https://www.holodia.com

They are the AltaVista to future Google

Building your products around an Apple product is like building a product around a parasite.

They'll wait until you depend on Apple hardware, or until they trap your users within their own user-base ecosystem, then will casually demand you pay the piper.

It's a "parasite" that pays over $50 Billion a year to people who build around their products.

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