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Comment by nine_k | Hacker News Reader

I happen to know a few Italians, and unfortunately cannot agree about the quality of life. Likely it's way better than in places like Congo — no wonder! But compared to more northern Europe and the US, the difference is rather stark. Look at the unemployment figures, for instance.

Still, of course, great people, great culture, great potential.

Same with Japan: wonderful culture, nice people, but the problems are real. And somehow, I suppose, they are rooted in the same great culture as the nice things :-/

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Lower classes in Italy are not as much penalized as in the US.

Eviction takes YEARS and it's just impossible in some situations (kids in the house), healthcare is free for all, personal debt is not as aggressive as here, unpaid debt is a nightmare to go afer.

So unemployment figures are not really that important to gauge quality of life. We had many scandals where people just didn't want to get hired and do small works off the books instead because life was just better like that.

You can be broke and still have a wonderful life in Italy. If you are smart and you want to get rich: much easier in the US.

Also about your Italian friends: Italian love to complain! If you ask them, they'll tell you. They will complain about everything all day with you. And then leave and go drink a nice aperitivo with their friends and enjoy the evening. It's very different from the US style of projecting an idyllic image of your life when you are with others, and then go home and drink whiskey until you forget you are alive. (Source: Italian living in US for 10 years)

Too-high GDP seems to result in a de facto aristocracy which claws as much of the wealth as possible to themselves, an issue which becomes more intractable over time re: Piketty. At both the macro and micro scale, quality of life seems to peak at the upper middle class, where there's just enough wealth that the imperative to keep everyone happy takes precedence (vs the imperative to stay at the top or keep everyone from starving on either side).

I know that Italy isn't perfect, but the Italian-style post-Imperial "chill-out" seems to work well in a lot of ways. I'm an American with no Italian heritage, but I was born there and I think I might have imprinted a bit. I hope to go back someday.

> where there's just enough wealth that the imperative to keep everyone happy takes precedence (vs the imperative to stay at the top or keep everyone from starving on either side)

Maybe

>people just didn't want to get hired and do small works off the books instead because life was just better like that.

The blue collar industries have issues hiring junior people for exactly this reason in many of the HCOL parts of the US. Nobody in their right mind wants to suffer through a couple years as a lube and tire tech when you can work when you can get paid more fixing people's cars under the table.

Sounds like the issue is that the "blue collar industries" employers need to offer higher salaries?

I'm sure their customers will completely understand, pay the higher costs without complaint, and not at all go and find alternative suppliers.

The alternative suppliers that don't have any employees?

Not necessarily in the same country.

You aren't going to be able to outsource auto maintenance to the next county, much less another country.

(The comment I originally replied to specifically referenced "lube and tire tech" as a role companies have trouble hiring for)

It's not like there's one lube and tyre company in the country, or that they don't compete with each other.

I think I misunderstood your comment

>> Sounds like the issue is that the "blue collar industries" employers need to offer higher salaries?

> I'm sure their customers will completely understand, pay the higher costs without complaint, and not at all go and find alternative suppliers.

The real issue may be that the investors won't understand, and won't take reduced profits without complaint.

Why not call your retirement fund managers and let them know you really don't need _that_ much of a pension after all.

> Why not call your retirement fund managers and let them know you really don't need _that_ much of a pension after all.

I'll take the lower pension, will you pass on the message for me? For some reason, the fund managers won't take calls from individual participants.

I'm just noting there's multiple dials here, and it's weird that it's often totally forgotten that "less profits" is just as reasonable as "higher consumer prices." Also you'll note that there are some people who profit extraordinarily from capital and have extraordinary control, and there are some people who profit much less and have even less control than that (and have little choice but to participate in the system as it exists). It's a false equivalency to equate the two.

Isn't car maintenance the kind of business that's more likely to be an SMB or family-run rather than have investors?

There's brands like Firestone and Jiffy Lube although I thought everyone knew that was a scam by now.

Why would those establishments be scam?

https://www.cheatsheet.com/money-career/how-jiffy-lube-got-a...

> Eviction takes YEARS and it's just impossible in some situations (kids in the house), healthcare is free for all, personal debt is not as aggressive as here, unpaid debt is a nightmare to go afer.

That may be, for now, but the problems are real. For young people with degrees, wages are not comparable with those of Nothern Europe, and many end up living with their parents for years, in between poorly paid, insecure jobs. Besides, in Nothern Europe also, the social benefits and indeed the whole economy can deteriorate.

That is quite true, its is probably very difficult for a single person in Italy to go live on their own due to house prices. But as a culture, Italians might also not feel any need to leave home as soon as other people.

I live in a neighboring country, Malta, and we share some similarities. Because our country are two small islands, housing is very expensive. So we have a unique case where a lot of people live with their parents until they get married or are in a very very stable relationship/financially well. This makes us very dependant on our parents, but it is not as bad as people make it seem. Our parents can depend on us to help and we continue saving.

There isin't a lot that can be done. Moving to one of the Northern European countries will not solve the problems our Southern countries are having.

> But as a culture, Italians might also not feel any need to leave home as soon as other people.

I agree with your points. This familial habit is a blessing for Italians, given the direction their economy is taking. It is indeed another positive cultural value that, in this case, may even reinforce societal cohesion.

Sorry to nitpick, but I am a regular listener to Deutsche Welle (dw.com). They have a nice weekly show called DW Africa. More info here: https://www.dw.com/en/top-stories/africa/s-12756

Are you aware there are two countries that are casually referred to as "Congo" by non-Africans? (Hello Africans! We hear you loud and clear!) Sorry, this is a real issue for me. I am so tired of Western (and East Asian!) media using the broad label "African" to sweep 50 countries under the rug that have very diverse development histories.

To be clear: (1) Democratic Republic of the Congo has GDP per capita below 1000 USD per year and is one of the least developed countries in the world -- affected by unfortunate tropical diseases and civil war. (2) Republic of the Congo is doing much better! Neighbors, but a GDP per capita that is 2.5 times of DRC.

If you are aware of all of this, ignore this post. If not, please kindly educate yourself before posting about the so-called sad lives of people from "Congo" -- a place that has not existed for more than 75 years!

I do. I also remember that both were war-torn; a colossal war ("African WWI", as some call it) happened in 1996-97, with some civil wars after that.

Both DRC ($420 per capita) and RoC ($390 per capita) are not well-off, compared to more fortunate countriers relatively nearby, like Nigeria ($2140 per capita), to say nothing if e.g.Botswana ($7k per capita).

Italy, for scale, got $31630 per capita in 2020, nearly 80 times that of RoC.

>Democratic Republic of the Congo has GDP per capita below 1000 USD per year and is one of the least developed countries in the world -- affected by unfortunate tropical diseases and civil war. (2) Republic of the Congo

Reminds me of the heuristic, the more modifiers a country's name has, the more likely it is to have economic or political issues. See for example, Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea vs Republic of Korea.

So what you're saying is we should change the name of The United States of America to something with only one word?

Just like the name "Liberia" and "Democratic Republic of" hint that they have no liberty and democracy respectively, the "united states" prefix hint that the states in america aren't that united (and european union isn't really a union). I remember, this was a joke from the "warlord" movie with Cage.

The Holy Roman Empire is neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire - Voltaire.

I mean it’s really down to the number of times “people” is in the name.

You could rewrite “The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea” in English to “The People’s Rule People’s Concern of the People of Korea”. Like any good lie, repetition doesn’t make it more true, and looks desperate.

My rule of thumb:

One use indicates a dark past the people would like to get away from with citizens, not subjects; two an authoritarian regime the people are subjects of and told they are citizens; three an authoritarian regime without any hope of redemption and the people are property of.

This is easily one of my top 10 favorite HN posts.

Interesting, informative, and polite. (Last one is super important)

Italy is a country of great contrasts. Northern Italy (such as Milan) is definitely on par with "more northern Europe".

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