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Comment by varispeed | Hacker News Reader

Here in the UK government introduced zero rights employment just few days ago and that would be totally legal here.

The UK has aspirations to be American, see: leaving the EU, deregulation and attempts to dismantle the NHS.

Sadly the UK are not the only European country with these types of aspirations. My best guess is that there are tightening relationships between the tops of the political and business classes in many countries. And they are beginning to realize they can engage in unmonitored corruption while running disinformation campaigns to cover their tracks. And then running for re-election on populist rhetoric to maintain the appearance that they are the opposite of their actual policies.

This happening on both the left and the right. Though I would say on the right the problem is considerably worse (this may just be my personal political bias, take it for what you will). The few people that are paying attention to this kind of misbehavior are the extremely informed. Who of course are a minority. Society is stratified across the globe and the very poor and poorly educated are being taken advantage of.

Most politicians don't believe they are engaging in corruption. But there are a limited number of government contracts to go around, the contracts are increasingly valuable, and on the demand side there are a growing number of humans and companies. At some point you might have half a dozen or even dozens of "qualified" looking applications for a government contract. And the procurement people within any given government usually end up picking between the many possible qualified looking applicants by the fact that someone has a social tie to the inside.

The only possible solution I can think of is accepting some type of randomization in the assignment of government contracts. Because proximity to power is way too important right now. And the politicians don't feel like they are engaging in corruptions they believe they are giving their friends who have risen through the meritocracy a deserved opportunity. There is some truth to this but the problem is their friends aren't the only people who have earned similar opportunities.

As someone not from the UK: What is zero rights employment, and how is it different than before?

It's not a special employment status. As a contractor in the UK you have fewer rights (pensions, notice periods, unfair dismissal, etc.) than an employee, but used to have not-inconsiderable tax benefits to trade off against this.

Thanks to HMRC reforms known as IR35, a lot of contractors are now considered akin to "disguised employees" and taxed as such - thus being taxed like an employee without the requisite legal benefits.

Contractors have a tendency to frame the gradual clamping down on their lucrative tax loopholes in hyperbolic self-pitying ways like this. Pretty savvy I guess.

The net result is not so much that the loopholes have gone away, but that the contracts have. Employers are refusing to engage with the new IR35 system rather than risk getting on the wrong side of HMRC.

There is a subtle change however that makes huge difference. Companies now can make anyone a contractor (deemed employee) as now the company decides about status and essentially create a workforce without any worker's rights. The "not-inconsiderable" tax benefits ended around 2017.

> Companies now can make anyone a contractor

I don't think that's true. If you are enrolled on PAYE they can't just change you to a contractor.

They can do that, it's called "fire and re-hire". The PAYE position ends and new contract position starts, that you can take or leave.

Example: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/28/a-kick-in-t...

The UK Gov just got slapped by Apple and Google for trying to exploit the Corona Virus notifcation exposure system by trying to precisely locate people with the Covid contact tracing tracker App.

This user is referring to IR35. It's been given the nickname "No Rights Employment" by those affected by it.

The change to IR35 lets companies decide the status of the worker hired as a contractor - the contract only needs a few clauses to ensure it falls in-scope and it means that a deemed employee is not a subject of employment law as a result. Now nothing stops e.g. Amazon or Uber from hiring any kind of worker this way. Some MPs now urge that this gets changed so that worker in-scope would enjoy employment rights and they are hoping this will happen during this Finance Bill. My guess is companies are going to wait few months and see.

Oh wow, this has slipped me by entirely, have you got an article about it that I can read?

This website has a good summary https://norightsemployee.uk/faq

There is not much information about it, because that gone through as a change to IR35, so people slept on it, but in reality companies can only hire on "in-scope IR35" contract and bypass employment law altogether.

From the site:

> Is this site trying to sell me something?

> No! We're just here to promote the use of NREs because we believe this is our chance to increase the productivity and fortunes of Great Britain, especially post-Brexit.

So, disingenuous as hell - it's totally a protest site but claims to be pro.

Very large pinch of salt needed here.

Yes it is a protest site. I know a few people who already work this way though.

And there we go ... some indication that it is satrire would help because it just looks dodgy otherwise.

And now I don't trust you one bit, even though I may well be on the same side as you!

Unfortunately I couldn't find any other source that would have the issue presented in a digestible format.

There is another one http://www.loanchargeappg.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/H...

> Here in the UK government introduced zero rights employment just few days ago and that would be totally legal here.

I am resolutely not a fan of our current UK government and they will certainly work to weaken worker's rights, but (absent of any corroberating references) this is just BS.

It's not BS. It is packaged as changes to IR35 and sold as "making sure that workers who work as employees pay the same tax as employees." More info: https://norightsemployee.uk/faq

Some MPs woke up quite too late: https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252499096/Loan-Charge-Gr...

The articles refer to those workers as contractors and mainly focus on IT market, but these rules can be applied to any workers.

Thank you for clarifying. But how would IR35 apply in this case - she was an employee anyway, not a contractor and did not have her own limited company.

There is a plausible approach https://norightsemployee.uk/step-by-step but it doesn't address the limited company issue.

It is possible to work inside IR35 without having own company, but I have not seen many materials about that, so I'll leave it.

Company formation is very quick and can be automated and there are already companies who automate accounting related to this.

The structure would have to look like this: - deemed employee gets a job offer, he or she accepts

- company creates limited company on worker's behalf and creates an agreement with a fee payer - it must contain clauses limiting substitution and few other to ensure it falls in scope of IR35.

- Fee payer is an intermediary between employer and worker that pays tax on behalf of the worker and sends his or hers salary to their company account. (these companies already exist)

- all accounting for worker's company can be automated (there will be no Corporation Tax to pay etc.)

This may seem complex, but I can imagine it gets streamlined quickly when companies see the benefits.

The site you reference reeks of disingenuity, so I shall regard your arguments with a great degree of skepticism.

Which is annoying, as I am very uncomfortable with the march towards zero hour contracts and the like - if you are genuine and not just an IT contractor who is pissed off that they can't do the usual IR35 tax dodges, then you do yourself a disservice citing such a ropey website :-(

I linked to this website as I thought despite this "let's help corporations exploit workers" theme, the information it has is quite concise and true.

You can also check this report http://www.loanchargeappg.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/H...

This is not only affecting IT contractors but anyone can be hired with such contract.

> The articles refer to those workers as contractors and mainly focus on IT market, but these rules can be applied to any workers.

But you say things like this from a reply above, and they simply do not apply to "any workers" (ie. employees) - only those that are specifically taken on as contractors. I'm not going to wake up tomorrow to find that it applies to me as I'm an employee, not a contractor.

I know this is your special hobby horse, but it has no bearing on this story.

Ok, but company can fire you and give you a contractor contract as take it or leave it.

It's legal. An example from today:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/apr/14/hundreds-br...

That story has nothing to do with IR35.

Really, I could swear you were a right-wing troll trying to get me to care less about employee rights by being so obscure about it all.

It seems like you are moving goal posts. I demonstrated that a mechanism to convert employee into a contractor is possible. The British Gas could have given them any type of contract.

Do you have a link so I can read about this? Sounds bad

Thankfully that's not EU anymore.

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