Comment by m463 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by m463 | Hacker News Reader

I have a librem 5.

At first I tried setting it up with a keyboard, mouse & monitor, but it was a little fiddly to get everything usable.

I had a USB-C hub from a macbook with PD + ethernet + hdmi, but I couldn't get the hdmi display to sync.

So I got another usb-c hub with ethernet + dp (+other ports) and that worked.

amazing: my phone desktop showing up on my 4k monitor!

So, that was pretty cool, but I still had a lot of fiddling to do - like which display the app comes up on, and how to switch things around. Also sometimes the display wasn't recognized when I wanted it do - I think I had to reboot with the display plugged in, because hotplug sometimes didn't work.

(There have been software updates since I tried this - it may be better now).

However, at the same time I ordered the second hub, I also got a $15 USB-C + PD + ethernet dongle.

Turns out that was really what I wanted. Let the phone be a phone, sit there charging and ssh/scp into it from my regular system. I can access the entire filesystem.

All of this really drives things home about Apple.

When the iPhone came out, apple was breaking new ground, so people even accepted web apps, because before they had nothing. And with quality/security, the app store made sense.

But after over a decade you realize that the apple ecosystem is more about control.

Why can't I write my own apps (without asking permission/eula). Why can't I run my own apps without either signing up as a developer and paying, or renew some certificate every 7 days? Why can't I plug all the things into USB and use them?

Apple has mindfully denied a lot of utility for their users. I thought maybe the mac usability would trickle over to iOS, but it seems the iOS lockdown has trickled over to the mac instead.

EDIT: wait. Let me say "Thank You" to the purism folks for doing this. It took a few years, but this phone makes me really really happy. I figure in a year or two it will let normal folks happily run their lives ios/android-free.

So, effectively—your phone is your computer? This is awesome. This is what general purpose computing was meant to be.

Marketing caused us to regress to the fragmented landscape of gimmicky special purpose devices that we have today.

On recent droids this works surprisingly well. I have a keyboard in my bag instead of my laptop now.

A shame Google's Pixels don't support wired video output.

Yeah, it's a shame Google never wired up those video-out pins on the SoC. It still rubs me the wrong way that evidently Google could have enabled video-out but chose not to for whatever reason.

The issue of display is the only thing that keeps me dragging a laptop around. I've been keeping an eye on monitor replacement AR glasses but looks like I'll be waiting another decade or so for anything consumer ready.

http://nexdock.com/

I have an ASUS Zenscreen MB16A. It's very portable, has a battery, touchscreen, speakers, input from either micro HDMI or USB C. The only disadvantage is that the battery will only last a few hours unless you have it plugged into usb-c charger, and I haven't worked out a way of charging it and giving it a usb-c signal at the same time yet (so when I'm using it at my desk I use the micro HDMI input).

I sort of agree. It wasn't marketing it was the failure of regulators to enforce the same sort of regulations they used against Microsoft to stop apple et al from becoming monstrous entities in the back of policies that stifle innovation and limit choice.

> I figure in a year or two it will let normal folks happily run their lives ios/android-free.

I hate to be "that guy" - and it seems like I always have to be "that guy" - but this will never allow "normal" folks to happily run their lives iOS / Android free.

The reason is because the collection, categorization, and collation of data on smartphone users is what drives the whole thing forward. It's the gas. The petrol. The solar power. The wind turbines. Without apps collecting and using data about their users, everything ends up having to be monetized differently and people have already shown that's not going to happen. You can't even get people to pay a few dollars a month for the single most important "app" on the Internet - email.

Sorry, but Librem 5 will never be more than a fun developer's toy. Most people are honestly pretty lazy and the sad simple fact is that they do not want to be challenged at all ever. They want to show up somewhere... bang on their keyboard like a monkey, or swing their hammer like a chimp, or smack their buttons like a macaque, and go home eight hours later, and then in 7-14 days, collect their bananas and eat them while watching Ow! My Balls!, or a slightly more advanced version of it like, American Ninja Warrior.

While the rest of nature is in a desperate bid for survival-at-all-costs that is consistently wiping out the slowest and the dumbest, through our struggle, we've managed to regress... we allow the dumbest and the least fit to survive. I know a bunch of wannabe evolutionary biologists here are going to throw around ideas they don't really understand, like, "Fitness doesn't mean being the smartest or the strongest, just the organism most able to reproduce!" No, that's just one single strategy, and not even always an optimal one.

This isn't an argument for killing off the dumb and weak, of course. I'm merely pointing out that most people have zero desire to be truly challenged, on anything, ever. That's exactly why they want their Samsung walled Android experience and their Apple walled iOS experience.

I wish we lived in a world where everyone spent a few dozen to a few hundred hours learning hard stuff to thereby make their lives permanently easier, but we don't. Most would rather spend a few hours doing relatively monotonous stuff over and over than actually learn something new.

OR

Maybe I'm just being an old curmudgeon. I guess we'll see.

> I wish we lived in a world where everyone spent a few dozen to a few hundred hours learning hard stuff to thereby make their lives permanently easier, but we don't. Most would rather spend a few hours doing relatively monotonous stuff over and over than actually learn something new.

I get this, but I'm not sure that using a phone that exposes a full Linux system is the answer here. In fact I think for many people one could make the opposite argument – spend a few hours learning how to use an iPhone and never have to worry about many classes of problems.

Yes, many people use iPhones because they don't have the ability to make an informed decision, but many people also have all the skills to make that decision and still choose them. It's all trade-offs, and for some, walled gardens and EULAs are not a problem, and having a camera and (closed source) software that allows better photos of their kids is far more important.

> I'm not sure that using a phone that exposes a full Linux system is the answer here

or the full list of vulns in the Linux kernel, for that matter.

> Most people are honestly pretty lazy and the sad simple fact is that they do not want to be challenged at all ever.

I (fellow curmudgeon perhaps) totally agree

> Without apps collecting and using data about their users, everything ends up having to be monetized differently and people have already shown that's not going to happen.

F-Droid and GNU/Linux repositories work flawlessly without any ads and, moreover, have much less malware, if at all.

> much less malware, if at all

Backstabber's Knife Collection: A Review of Open Source Supply Chain Attacks - https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.09535

F-Droid's a great project, but needs to take security more seriously, even if that means accepting some help from adjacent projects.

I don't see how it disproves my point.

Why does everything on the internet have to be a debate? =]

OR

Maybe I'm just being an old curmudgeon. I guess we'll see.

When predicting the future, ego gets involved. We invest at least a little of our pride. We want to be right.

The problem is you could be both right and wrong at the same time. The outcome could be what you foresee, but not for the reasons you think.

What if Librem 5 will never be more than a fun developer's toy, but for other unrelated reasons? Sorry, that's cheating.

Okay there's about a dozen reasons Librem 5 will never be more than a fun developer's toy. Here's just a few.

1) It's difficult to use as a daily driver even for experienced people. It's impossible for the average person.

2) It's not a premium device with a big beautiful screen, lots of RAM, the fastest processor, tons of storage, etc. So it doesn't attract the non-technical enthusiast crowd.

3) It doesn't have brand appeal like Samsung or Apple. It's not consider a "status" item by the general population. So it doesn't attract a beautiful young fashion model who wants to be seen with an iPhone 12 Pro Max XL Super Duper.

4) It runs an operating system most people have never heard of - Linux. Most people know Android, most people know what iOS is, or have at least heard of it. The people I mentioned above don't know Linux. They especially don't understand what makes this brand of Linux "special".

5) In order to this to eventually overtake the world, the entire world has to shift to a paid model for literally everything, because how else are you going to fund it? Everybody's exchanging data with everyone. Data about users. No exchange means increased prices across the board, for everything, because no data means no targeted advertisement. Hell, you can barely do untargeted advertisement with no data.

How's that? Happy now?

> ) It's difficult to use as a daily driver even for experienced people. It's impossible for the average person.

Although true, this is a problem with software, which gets better every month. I'm sure within a year it's gonna be alright. (A year ago the phone could not even be charged while being powered on or receive calls.)

> 2) It's not a premium device with a big beautiful screen, lots of RAM, the fastest processor, tons of storage, etc. So it doesn't attract the non-technical enthusiast crowd.

Actually, it is in the world of GNU/Linux phones (the alternative being Pinephone). It is also powerful enough to drive GNU/Linux smoothly, play 3d games, videos on a big screen (which popular phone can do that?) and so on. It can also replace your laptop for most typical tasks.

> 3) It doesn't have brand appeal like Samsung or Apple. It's not consider a "status" item by the general population. So it doesn't attract a beautiful young fashion model who wants to be seen with an iPhone 12 Pro Max XL Super Duper.

Give it some time ;) It already has some brand value, despite a niche one.

> 4) It runs an operating system most people have never heard of - Linux. Most people know Android, most people know what iOS is, or have at least heard of it. The people I mentioned above don't know Linux. They especially don't understand what makes this brand of Linux "special".

People don't care whether they heard of it or not. Android runs Linux kernel just fine, so Linux is already popular. What makes it "special" is written on the official Librem 5 page. And it's not only for geeks: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5.

> 5) In order to this to eventually overtake the world, the entire world has to shift to a paid model for literally everything, because how else are you going to fund it? Everybody's exchanging data with everyone. Data about users. No exchange means increased prices across the board, for everything, because no data means no targeted advertisement.

GNU/Linux repositories work flawlessly without any ads and, moreover, have much less malware, if at all. It's not the whole world, but a large part of it nonetheless.

> Hell, you can barely do untargeted advertisement with no data.

This is how newspapers worked since forever.

Of course, you're right.

It boggles my mind how so many people install alexa, ring, samsung tvs and all the brightly colored google things. Of course they'll buy whatever phone has neat features.

Human nature is human nature, and people want convenience not privacy.

But take it from me - one curmudgeon to another - after you've been hit over the head with ever more audacious privacy policies year after year, this phone is a relief.

I don't mind lowering my standards for functionality as long as there's a way forward.

I would recommend you try running a librem 5 or maybe a pinephone in a year or two. (though from pinephone videos I've seen, the librem stutters less if ever)

Back to normal people, I guess I was thinking of some of my friends who have bought phones and literally never installed an app. But some of them are millionaires who probably are tracked everywhere they go by the default apps and the default privacy policies. They get popups all the time and their phone rings with spam.

This phone is expensive for what it provides, so maybe it's a hard sell.

Out-of-the-box - the main functionality is a phone app, a messages app, a web browser, contacts, alarm clock and an app store.

There are a few more, and more pop up in the app store, but some core things are missing.

The ones that I hope will come out soon are a camera app, a maps app and some sort of media player. I'd personally like a todo list and a shopping list.

I think if you got those going, you could hand it to a normal person and they could use it. I don't think it would be that different from a basic android phone.

But what I REALLY look forward to are the things other phones aren't allowed to do.

I would like to see:

- smarter call handling - I think there could be smarter blocking. But I also wonder could your phone take a message and put it through if it meets conditions?

- rolling wifi - could you have a wifi access point that changes ssid on a timer? and your phone changes too?

- location based wifi - could your wifi go off when you leave home and come back on when you get nearby?

- a smart firewall - whitelist your traffic

- per-site web-browsers with sandboxing - could you have an icon that launches a web browser in a sandbox and talks to one and only one site? That might be the solution for big services - they all have web access, use that but control it.

- rsync your entire phone when you get home

I like the cut of your jib, friend.

A lot of things you're espousing, I'd like to see.

> - smarter call handling - I think there could be smarter blocking. But I also wonder could your phone take a message and put it through if it meets conditions?

https://www.hackers-game.com/2020/09/08/robocalls-fight-bots...

aha, maybe it will happen sooner, not later!

You’re a curmudgeon, Linux phones don’t need the success of Apple and Google to survive. As Purism is demonstrating, the work just needs to be done and open sourced. People who prefer Apple and Google phones can remain in that ecosystem just as people who would like to live outside of it in their personal PCs can today. You will see a schism in the market. It may not be dramatic enough to “cause disruption” but it’s enough of a market to sustain as Pine64 and Purism and System 76 and many others have proven. People want Linux devices.

You don't know whether people want to be challenged or not. Not everyone wants to be challenged at everything. You can be good at something and still both suck and not have any interest in other things. Brilliant programmers might have no idea how to cook anything. Brilliant doctors buy iPhones for the convenience because they have zero mental attention left to focus on things like tinkering with technology even at the slightest. Of course many people don't want to be "challenged" at all, but MOST have something that challenges them constantly, and I would say - a very important aspect you seem to neglect - the majority of people on earth, perhaps even in "developed" nations, have their hands full trying to survive and barely making ends meet, with no energy to spare on other less urgent matters.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com