I guess I don't see any good candidates for the "drastic policy decisions" based on "biased studies from massive corporations"... Really most of what the world did was pretty textbook disease control stuff. What is it you mean?
I guess I don't see any good candidates for the "drastic policy decisions" based on "biased studies from massive corporations"... Really most of what the world did was pretty textbook disease control stuff. What is it you mean?
Then the government changed their statements and said that masks were effective, and everyone should use them. It's the switching and lying to the public that leads to a lack of trustworthiness. You can argue that they didn't know the efficacy of mask usage, but that isn't the point here. It's that they lied to the American public for an ulterior motive, which is wrong.
* Not requiring masks at workplaces or schools once seated (common in many areas)
* Not aiming for ventilation and denying aerosol spread
* Denying asymptomatic and presymptomatic spread. Giving health/testing advice mainly based on symptoms
* Not using and blocking rapid tests
* Not scaling testing capacity with cases
Japan had a more coherent approach on some of these with their three C’s approach: avoid closed spaces, crowded rooms, and close contact. The West generally just emphasized the latter. (The west did have capacity limits, but only to space people out within rooms, not for aerosols)
There’s an awful lot of curve fitting to beliefs going on - because it is so difficult to do solid experiments.
There's still quite a bit of debate over this question, despite the article's insistence that the matter is settled. The data supporting it comes mostly from modeling studies, and real-world data is thin on the ground. Mostly anecdotes.
We have lots of examples of pre-symptomatic (or minimally-symptomatic) transmission for other illnesses, but these tend to be limited (e.g. spread within households), and it's always been a bit of a stretch to make the claim that completely healthy people are spreading diseases widely in "super-spreader" events via casual encounters. Does it happen? Sure. Is it common? Ehhhh.
Even with Covid, we know that the majority of transmission (something like 80%) occurs within households. Of the remainder, as TFA notes, there's an "overdispersion", where a few people are responsible for most of the spread. Is it really likely that these "superspreader" people are mostly completely healthy, without symptoms, and yet unknowingly spreading it to vast numbers of people? Or is that just something that we've found a few times, and makes the most memorable anecdotes?
It is certainly not the hypothesis you would favor based on parsimony alone. If you were a betting person, you'd probably put your money on the idea that someone is a little bit sick (but not so sick as to stay home in bed), and the disease can spread by aerosol or droplet with low probability. That's a much simpler explanation for the same pattern: someone has a tickle in their throat or a slight fever, but goes to the restaurant/office/wherever anyway. Set the probability of transmission to a low p-value, and let the poisson distribution do the rest. Just by chance alone, you will see rare occasions where large(r) groups of people get infected.
There is absolutely nothing new about it as concept. It is not something that appeared with covid first time in history of diseases.
Why hasn't that experiment been done?
This is the news from three days ago: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-symptoms-rep...
Here's an actual paper from 2021 that shows that -- as you might expect -- that exhaled particles correlate with age, weight and viral load:
https://www.pnas.org/content/118/8/e2021830118
In other words: older, fatter, sicker people are more likely to shed the kind of particles that facilitate transmission. They make a point of noting that nobody in their test under the age of 26 was a significant source of aerosol.
Anyway, GP is not wrong. We could do these experiments, instead of just guessing.
The question is how common is it? How large a percentage of all cases are caused by it? And the whole "always wear a mask" hinges on asymptomatic/presumptomatic spread being high.
Because if it isn't high, then we're focusing on the wrong thing, we're needlessly being suspicious of every single random stranger, we're choosing something that's easily virtue-signalable, over things that actually stop the spread.
My favorite example of how it's become semi-religious is people wearing them on outdoor walks in the suburbs where, worst case, they'll with within 6 feet of someone for a total of 30 seconds. The virus spreads very poorly in those conditions. Ironically, you're more likely to get the virus at home from a family member, but there's been minimal push for masking at home because it's political suicide.
That’s a very low proportion.
A prior history of SARS-CoV-2 infection was associated with an 83% lower risk of infection
I don’t see that in the paper you referenced.
What I have a problem with here is how the goalposts for going back to normal just continue to push out like this. First it was just reducing R0 to a certain level. Then it was vaccination. Now it's something else that is yet undefined. It's impossible to come up with a rule because someone will always bring up some extreme edge case and say "well we don't really know with P99 certainty". This isn't a reasonable way to manage a society. At some point we need to acknowledge and ingest the remaining risk so that, for mental health reasons and others, our society can return to something that resembles normalcy.
It's not "pseudoscientific" to or "religious" to make a different risk analysis decision. People just have different tolerances.
Broadly: be nice. You're not as right as you think you are, you're just braver.
There's also an argument that it's safer to have an easy, blanket rule, rather than permit everyone to editorialize on why they are super special and should be given a pass. There's a solidarity angle as well. Just wear the mask, darn it!
Maybe. Once you get to measures that have a negligible effect, weird things start to take over. Behavior change (feeling safer in a mask) is probably a bigger factor than the mask, itself, at that point.
No, always. Masks are mechanical, they reduce risk by some fraction, period. Some fraction of particles that would enter or leave the lungs and into the environment don't, because they get trapped in the fabric. That doesn't have anything to do with how many particles there are.
I think your logic mistake here is that you're assuming that all these mitigation strategies are correlated, that you need to stay distanced OR outside OR masked, etc... But that's not the way this works. All of those strategies help INDEPENDENTLY, and doing them all leads to less risk.
Now, if you're 40' away from the nearest person and outside, it's true that your absolute risk is almost certainly so negligible as to make a mask irrelevant. But believing otherwise isn't "pseudoscience" or "religion", it's just a calculation error.
Be nice.
I think you're assuming that these people who want mask compliance at a 40' distance are doing the statistics like you are making the same conclusion about what behavior should be normal (a conclusion I disagree with). Some might be, but I doubt it's any non-trivial percentage. It's just a social norm now that's based not on science, but on a particular person's or group of persons' feelings.
That is pseudoscience. Being "nice" is a, well, "nice" platitude but it isn't science. And after being lectured for more than a year about how "we need to follow the science" I find it more than a little annoying, but not unsurprising, that we're going to do otherwise.
But you don't need to wear a mask at home, just open the damn windows and let the air circulate
People's level of actual cognition seems to have gone down and being replaced by dogmatic fervour one way or the other, leading to a competition of who screams their allegiance louder.
If you think a mask don't help you're welcome to volunteer at a Covid ward without one. NPIs (stay at home, lockdowns, etc) have been used since the black death
Sure you won't hurt anybody but yourself by wearing a mask (or two) outdoors with no one around (for prolonged periods of time) or "staying at home" at all costs needlessly, but yeah, you'll still looking like a fool.
That's very much false. You compare apples to apples to get a useable result, not apples to sour grapes. Sweden's policy have caused much much worse results compared to the countries you should compare it to: Norway, Denmark and Finland.
For example deaths per 100k citizens is 12 in Norway and 134 in Sweden. Sweden is the perfect counterexample to your point.
Nice graphs (Sweden is the yellow line that always stand out): https://www.vg.no/spesial/corona/norden/
Why do you want to compare to those specific countries you quote rather than the countries, say, that Sweden has distant transport links to?
See what I mean about myths propagating.
All the other countries you mentioned have vastly different cultures. E.g. I'm Polish and I can say that Polish government doesn't care about law and Polish people are fine with it. It's not to the extent Ukraine or Russia does it, but still. Poles also do not respect authority. This is in exact opposite to how things go in Finland or Sweden. It's almost a taboo to question authorities in Sweden or Finland.
So not surprisingly, if you do the cherry picking honestly by including all Sweden's neighbours, including Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania etc, then Sweden stops being the worst in that little bounding box and we're back to Sweden disproving the models. Which it has done, comprehensively, because no model or theory postulates a Nordic exception.
Their cultures are very similar so the comparisons are very apples to apples.
Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania are post soviet republics. Vastly different influences.
Uh... the whole premise was to cherry pick Sweden and try to make a broad determination based on that one data point! You don't get to demand broad statistics if you didn't do it originally.
The converse, attempting to argue that Sweden suffered harshly by looking only at physical neighbours, doesn't follow naturally from any scientific question anyone is actually raising. For that comparison to be useful you'd need a theory of the form, "Nordic peoples are genetically superior to other peoples in ways that makes them naturally resistant to COVID, and thus whilst original models neglected that factor, Nordic Exceptionalism means Sweden should have been identical to Norway and they weren't therefore their decision was a bad one". But obviously such an argument would be nonsense and nobody is claiming that - just implying it.
It's irrelevant for another reason: Sweden only looks like it did "badly" compared to Norway when using percentages. If you look at it in terms of absolute change in excess death, it's small, and depending on how you calculate, you can actually argue COVID had no effect on excess death in Sweden ([1] has an example of such calculations). The impact on Sweden of not locking down, even if you ascribe all differences between these arbitrarily chosen countries to that, is so tiny that it cannot justify the costs of the policy.
At any rate, if you like there are other examples and they all support the same argument. For example, in the USA Florida is a reasonable choice. They released their restrictions relatively early without disaster. Or South Dakota (=identical curves to North Dakota despite very different levels of restrictions), or the recent example of Texas unlocking, or Belarus.
Sweden is a popular choice because it's a very clear counter-example that's been widely discussed in Europe, and because - as I already noted - no model predictions or epidemiological theories make any exceptions for Sweden or Nordic countries. In fact modellers predicted specifically that Sweden would have had 90,000 deaths from COVID by May, but in fact they had about 98,000 deaths in total from all causes by the end of the year. It's therefore sufficient by itself to disprove the models.
[1] https://softwaredevelopmentperestroika.wordpress.com/2021/01...
Really all you're saying here is that the data is noisy (duh). So we can't refute your argument with local data about Scandinavia because that's "cherry picking". But when your argument is about a SINGLE DATA POINT IN ISOLATION (Sweden's results) then... that's totally valid analysis that needs to be accepted without question or worry about confounding noise?
No, that's bad science. It's quite clear that nations with both good mitigation strategies and good compliance (Finland, Germany, Japan) had low case counts, and those that didn't (everywhere else) had bad outbreaks. It's true you can find outliers, but so what?
If your response is, "well obviously all swans are white in this part of the lake" then you've lost the argument, because your original theory is the one being debated, not one with a random ad-hoc revision that makes no sense.
Arguments about Sweden and lockdown are like this. The debate in question is whether lockdowns were required. Their justification is entirely based on models that claim to accurately simulate the counter-factual: that not locking down will yield enormous death numbers. To disprove this theory and thus eliminate it as the justification for lockdowns only requires one counter example, because the original theory is total and has no exceptions for proximity to Stockholm/Nordic culture/whatever today's excuse is.
Now as I've pointed out, Sweden is not the only counter-example, there are quite a few in different parts of the world. But that doesn't matter because by the nature of the original claim, a single counter-example is sufficient. To re-establish a justification for lockdowns would require a revised theory that is actually coherent and explains all the exceptions, not just a single one: this is basic logic.
Basic health hygiene requires discipline that may take years to develop if not mandated and enforced/practiced.
Too many variables to be a mask skeptic given Cali situation...
By the way, be careful to separate the question of mask mandates from masks themselves. Mask mandates don't work: just look at case curves when mandates were introduced or removed and observe the lack of inflection points. If they worked people would have hundreds of examples by now of case curves which obviously inflected right after a mask mandate was changed, but no such graphs are ever cited because those inflections don't reliably happen. Texas provides a recent example (mandate removed, curve continues prior trend) but this problem was obvious from within a week of the first mandates being introduced. Look at [1] for some case graphs with mandate change dates drawn on them to see the problem.
Anyway, errors seen in public health papers:
1. Circular reasoning.
2. Invalid citations.
3. Programming errors in models.
4. Use of extremely out of date numbers.
5. Absurd or obviously invalid assumptions and results in models being ignored.
That's not a comprehensive list. Unfortunately these aren't rare problems. Virtually every public health paper I've read has had at least one of these issues, often multiple. Circular logic in particular is mind-numbingly common, to an extent I've never seen before. For example, a common "validation" technique for models is to compare them to other models and declare their outputs to be similar (e.g. [2] or [3]). It's almost unheard of to compare model outputs to actual observed data, probably because doing validation right would invalidate virtually all public health models (this problem was admitted in a 2012 paper [4]).
For a specific example of these problems see the paper by Flaxman et al from Imperial College London [5]. This paper argued that lockdowns work using a statistical model, but they actually don't work, so to get this result required a combination of:
1. Circular logic: the model took as a starting assumption that case curves could only be changed by government intervention. In other words the paper encoded its own conclusions in its assumptions. The assumption epidemics can only be affected by lockdowns has no rational basis given the long history of epidemics starting and ending naturally.
2. The paper included Sweden in its data set, which attracted attention because Sweden appears to prove that the models generating the counterfactual were wrong. It managed to conclude lockdowns worked despite this because it concluded Sweden was a freak coincidence with an only 1 in 2000 chance of existing at all; in the graph that showed the different per-country fudge factors the model was allowed to calculate, Sweden was simply hidden to obscure what had happened. The truth was discovered later by people who studied the tables of prior probabilities uploaded to GitHub.
3. The paper admitted half way through that its scenario was "illustrative only" and that "in reality" the results would be different.
There were other problems too, but none of them stopped the authors telling the press that lockdowns had "saved millions of lives" (i.e. the drastic policy pushed for by that very same research team). Nor did it stop international press agencies citing this paper in "fact checks".
After reading so many papers with really basic and blatant problems, it's hard not to conclude that open access is going to seriously damage academia's credibility. Being able to just download and read the output of academic scientists is a very new thing, and one of the few highlights of the time I've spent reading COVID research is that open access is real now: I've hardly ever hit paywalls. Only for old papers. Unfortunately open access is a double edged sword. Now we can all read what we're paying for and observe the dangerously low quality. The outcome will probably be a large expansion of the battle between "science believers" and "science skeptics". Up until now that has been mostly restricted to debates on climatology, but now I think it will widen considerably. There's just no way to read the literature and retain your confidence in academic science when so much of it is entirely un-scientific.
[1] https://rationalground.com/mask-charts/
[2] https://github.com/ptti/ptti/blob/master/README.md (see the paragraph starting with "Formalism-agnostic").
[3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3001435/ ("There is agreement in the literature that comparing the results of different models provides important evidence of validity and increases model credibility")
[4] ibid; ("few models in healthcare could ever be validated for predictive use. This, however, does not disqualify such models from being used as aids to decision making")
[5] https://nicholaslewis.org/did-lockdowns-really-save-3-millio...
Sorry, cite for "actually don't work"?! I don't know what you mean by "lockdown". That's not a term of art, it's something used mostly among right wing people arguing against mitigation strategies via hyperbole. Are you talking about mask requirements? Restaurant closures? Hard curfews?
Obviously "lockdowns" (in this sense of "broad covid mitigation strategies") do work. Arguing otherwise is nonsensical. Just look at the data for what is happening in influenza in areas where mitigation was common. Flu cases and deaths fell through the floor. Clearly mitigation worked, just not perfectly (in large part because of poor compliance by people who believe "lockdowns don't work").
https://www.aier.org/article/lockdowns-do-not-control-the-co...
I don't know what you mean by "lockdown". That's not a term of art, it's something used mostly among right wing people arguing against mitigation strategies via hyperbole.
The word lockdown has been widely used for the entire past year by people across the political spectrum, to refer to mandatory stay-at-home orders, business closures and so on. You know this already of course, but are determined to view this through ideological lenses.
As for obviously working and being nonsensical to claim otherwise, it's the opposite: the data is extremely clear that they have no effect whatsoever and quite a lot of all-country statistical analyses have been done that show that rigorously. For example, here is one such paper:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5...
"Rapid border closures, full lockdowns, and wide-spread testing were not associated with COVID-19 mortality per million people"
But again, to see this, you don't really need sophisticated analysis. You can just look at the case curves for different regions that did or did not use these tactics.
Re: influenza. We're talking about COVID here, so influenza is irrelevant, controlling the flu wasn't the goal of lockdowns. However, there is some evidence that suggests you can't be infected with more than one respiratory virus at once, so it's possible SARS-CoV-2 simply kicked influenza out. But given the extremely lax symptom classification of COVID it's also possible influenza cases have simply been reclassified. Regardless of the explanation it's not actually relevant: neither lockdowns nor mask mandates had any impact on COVID and there is abundant evidence to this effect. The real question we should be asking is why not, and there unfortunately there are quite a few plausible explanations but nothing conclusive. And the people who are paid to figure that out (epidemiologists) all seem to be in denial and still pretending their models were never invalidated, so they're not much help.