I do not believe that most of the world has responded in a particularly useful way to covid, but I do believe that masks are quite effective (especially N95 or comparable masks) at reducing the spread of covid in indoor spaces. So yes, mask mandates, at least indoors, make quite a lot of sense.
The school closure issue is harder. There seems to be surprisingly little data on the degree to which covid spreads among children compared to adults and the degree to which covid spreads from children to adults. But most schools consist of students indoors, in a poorly ventilated space, often crowded, talking, for hours a day. Read the article: this is prime covid-spreading conditions. Perhaps schools could have been allowed to remain open to the extent that they could move outdoors or drastically improve ventilation, but doing nothing seems likely to have been a very bad idea.
[0] This is not actually the case, obviously.
If? We already know that it doesn't. Yes, other viruses rip through schools rapidly, but this virus simply doesn't. Your gut feeling is wrong.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br...
"Younger children (<10 years of age) may be less likely to be infected than adolescents. This possibility is supported by contact tracing studies; test positivity data from children, adolescents, and adults; and population screening studies using seroprevalence data. Susceptibility to SARS-CoV-2 infection and the proportion among those infected experiencing symptoms both generally increase with age."
I don't think this is something you can claim without backing. I fail to see significant logic/empirical observations that make it seem futile to you that stopping the spread to a subset of the population is significantly harder than for the whole population.
>Do you really expect that the large majority of people over 65 could be protected effectively when the considerable majority of under-65 people to whom they are exposed (caregivers, food providers, relatives, etc) get covid?
Exposing the not-at-risk population would likely increase the short-term risk (all measures constant) but decrease the long-term risk to people over 65. Having a smaller population to focus on protecting would likely make their protection easier.
Even if you were right in that you would have more casualties from selective locking down (which I am unconvinced), would the increased death toil justify the freedom being messed with for the whole population?
A substantial risk of passing a deadly virus on to vulnerable people is not a freedom, it's negligence.
Stay-at-home orders/curfews are affronts to freedom. Derailing this to imply wanting to go outside at all is negligence is disingenuous. Preventing people from seeing other people over long period of times is known to be psychologically bad for human (and is a form of torture, see [1]. Although it is different in some ways, it seems clear its not good for the population well-being).
>nor a foolproof way (even now) to test everyone at-risk populations might come in contact with.
Don't let perfection hinder practicality. Keeping at-risk population away from infected people at a good rate is very feasible. It doesn't have to be foolproof (nor is it right now). It does not seem either harder or worse than what we are doing right now.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#Torture
I only have experience with the U.S. orders in California specifically. I spent a lot of time outside in parks and nature reserves instead of inside buildings. From what I saw, a lot more people than usual were also doing the same. It's quite possible that countries that restricted people to their own houses went overboard, but e.g. New Zealand had an optimal outcome with a very quick lockdown and contact tracing.
There are some similar situations: curfews and blackouts during world war II bombing raids, and laws against shooting firearms into the air. Both restrict "freedom" in a general sense but are examples of legitimately limiting individual freedom because it causes undue risk to others. I don't have a solid threshold for where restrictions make sense, but a starter might be the total net QALYs. Wars are often supported despite reducing net QALYs for everyone, for example, but that's hopefully an outlier.
According to [1], an estimate of 810,000 discounted QALYs were lost by July 2020 in the U.S. This number would likely have been significantly higher with uncontrolled spread. Dividing that out into the U.S. population means the lockdowns would have to reduce everyone's life expectancy by about a day due to the 3-4 months we were in lockdown to reach the threshold where I'd start to consider scaling the lockdowns back. As the U.S.'s failed attempt to control the spread continued for the entire year, the cost/benefit changed. Extrapolating from about 150k covid deaths in July/August 2020 to the 560k now linearly we'd be up to four lost days balanced against QALY losses from covid. Suicide rates seem to have decreased in 2020, so the losses would have to come from delayed effects or adverse health from lack of exercise, etc. I can be convinced that the lockdowns were too extreme, but it'll take solid analysis and it probably won't be fully measurable until a few years from now when we see follow-on effects.
> Don't let perfection hinder practicality. Keeping at-risk population away from infected people at a good rate is very feasible. It doesn't have to be foolproof (nor is it right now). It does not seem either harder or worse than what we are doing right now.
To keep vulnerable people healthy, we have to keep everyone they interact with healthy or at least non-contagious. If covid had unrestricted spread through everyone under 65 that's 80% of the population being a vector within a couple months. We didn't have test infrastructure or certainty on mechanism of spread by May 2020, so quite likely most vulnerable populations would be in contact with contagious people and get sick as well.
I agree we're basically at the tipping point but it's because vaccines are getting us closer to herd immunity. Attempts at "opening up" in the past were misguided because they only resulted in a large spike of new infections and deaths, the latter the key indication that despite best efforts the vulnerable populations were not well protected.
[1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/hec.4208
1. Using QALYs seems ok w/r to covid, but not in relation to lockdowns. You say 4 days of QALYs lost per person and I'd argue that being unable to see your friends & family or do most activity is alike to being sickly (which is what is used to calculate QALYs). Maybe its not a 1:1 correspondance but lockdowns for 8 months (I'm not sure USA, I'm more familiar with Canada) have (imo) exceeded 4 days of QALYs per person by a long margin.
2. I have major issue with this line of thinking:
>I can be convinced that the lockdowns were too extreme, but it'll take solid analysis and it probably won't be fully measurable until a few years from now when we see follow-on effects.
It's a strongly held belief of mine that, in order to restrict the freedom of people (ala blackouts during WW2), you have to have a solid argument that what your doing not only outweigh the disadvantages, but far outweigh them. Restricting people's freedom is not like an economic decision. I believe this is what the general society has come to accept too (e.g. civil law has preponderance of evidence vs penal code which has abundance of evidence).
I agree that we can grant an "emergency response" where we are unsure of the risks, but I disagree strongly that this emergency response can last this long without a very strong case/public discourse that this is significant enough to restrict freedom.
In 2019, heart disease killed 18.6 million people whereas Covid has taken 2.9 million lives. Heart disease is also a major factor in severe Covid cases. Couldn't we save more lives if we took all this governmental effort that we are putting towards tiered business closures and mask mandates and instead focused it on national, maybe even mandatory exercise programs?
On average, people were about 6x more likely to die of heart disease than covid over this last year, yet we take comparatively little if any action.
Could you add a link to where you get those numbers from. What the link below says is that "Covid-19 is the Number One Cause of Death in the U.S. in Early 2021".
If Covid-19 is the number one cause of death, how could heart-disease be 6x more likely cause of death?
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/covid-19-is-the-nu...
Plus this doesn't take into account the reporting bias that seems to have been (be?) prevalent in 2019.
(Although it seems heart disease was still bigger than covid for 2020 [1] if compared to 2019 [2] in the us)
[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=number+of+death+covid+2020+u... - 561k covid [2] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm - 659k heart disease
I mean it in that Covid will look worse and heart disease better on a short scale, but in the grand scheme of things Covid will die down and heart disease come back, since you don't have immunity or vaccines against heart disease. That means that comparing (for the same year) covid vs heart disease is somewhat useless (since covid is an exceptional and short-lived event).
Fixing both problems will probably move deaths to another category (since that is the purpose of having categories), but the argument was that addressing covid has less benefits than addressing heart disease (mostly because covid addresses itself over time, whatever lockdown/mask wearing we do, but heart diseases do not).
So it's NOT like all those half-million people who died from Covid-19 in the US would have died anyway and we would just call their cause of death something else. No. They died because of Covid-19 and many of them because some people publicly downplayed the danger of it and made fun of people wearing masks.
If you consider US only then it's not quite as dramatic but heart disease is still the #1 killer, especially since this happens every year and there's no vaccine for heart disease. 647,000 US deaths due to heart disease in 2019 vs 575,615 deaths due to Covid in 2020/2021. https://www.singlecare.com/blog/news/heart-disease-statistic...
As others have pointed out however, heart disease is a major factor in Covid deaths, for example, a history of heart failure ramps the Covid case-fatality rate from something like 2% for the general population up to 49%, so it's very difficult to fully separate out heart disease vs. covid for those 575k US deaths.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7490208/
If we are serious about following the science, it's pretty clear where we should focus our effort.
I don't know when it's been decided that we're going to prevent young people from living, so that people who are going to die soon anyway get a few more years.
I mean, the entire system is made up of exploiting young people so that old rich scum get richer but uh, how long can this go on? Young people don't even have children anymore, while the profits of old rich scum are record high. This trend obviously can't continue so I'm waiting for a voice of reason to say 'enough of this shit already, you're not going to live forever and we're not going to walk on egg-shells for the rest of our lives to appease your irrational fear of death'.
Oh, one more thing - if you give a shit about people not dying of viruses world-wide - try not letting virus carrying things travel world-wide because it's 'fun'. I mean, what kind of games are we playing here? This is a self inflicted wound by stupid rich people that everyone else now has to pay for.
Why do you believe it rather than know it from solid science?
The problem is that the whole mask thing has dubious impact, much like Vitamin D, or washing hands and the rest, but has become a symbol of political allegiance, not medical impact. What was predicted to happen in Texas hasn't happened.
There has been absolutely no evidence anywhere of children in schools being vectors for transmission. They suffer very little sickness from the disease and don't seem to spread the virus until they start showing actual symptoms - both of which directly contradict the prevailing narrative.
Yet these glaring anomalies seem to be dismissed by the prevailing belief. Even simply mentioning them has become verboten as the response to this post will probably show.
I don't believe anybody has looked into whether different types of people from different ages 'leak' the virus differently. That would go some way to explain the difference between the Diamond Princess experience (full of older people), and schools (full of younger people).
We know very little and humility in the face of that is called for. What we're doing now is going to look foolish in the future once we know more.
1) If N95 masks didn't work, all doctors and nurses in ICUs treating covid patients would get sick quite quickly. But that didn't, and in fact they got sick at a similar rate to other doctors (this is from Peru where they had lots and lots of covid)
2) These masks literally stop the virus from passing into your respiratory system. So why would you be surprised if they prevent disease transmission?
But that's doctors and nurses in a highly controlled environment where we know there is an awful lot of virus particles around. That controlled environment doesn't occur elsewhere, so you are comparing apples and pears.
Leakage round the side, not wearing the masks fully, not changing often enough, etc. all apply in the field not the hospital, and even then the network effects can outstrip the filtering effect. Concentrations matter - as it does with radiation where high radiation areas damage the body and then when it drops below a certain level there is little impact at all.
Extrapolating from hospital to elsewhere is problematic and simply not supported by the evidence.
" These masks literally stop the virus from passing into your respiratory system."
Again in controlled environments, not in the field where that level of protection isn't available nor is it managed, changed or worn properly in all cases.
The reality on the ground shows that. There is no detectable effect outside really controlled environments without a high degree of curve fitting and bias. Texas has not exploded has it.
The downvotes say it all. People no longer wants to discuss rationally the possibility that they may be mistaken. It has become a religious crusade to do with identity.
The motto of the Royal Society is "Nullus in Verba" - take nobody's word for it. The essence of science is to question, not censor.
We appear to have forgotten that.
https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2020/07/do-cloth-ma...
We absolutely have, and non-surprisingly, the sicker a person is, the more virus they spread around them. And since children are much less likely to develop symptoms or get sick, they spread the disease less, which is why spread among students in schools is much, much smaller than among the community at large.
I would love for you to be right. Sadly, if you actually try to look up the incidence of long covid (or post covid syndrome, etc), you will find estimates ranging from 5-25% incidence. Optimistically divide by five (I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt here) if you want to estimate the incidence among total infections instead of symptomatic infections. Divide by 10 if you think that 90% of patients will recover fully and quickly enough that you should discount them. You’re left with 0.1% to 0.5%. You appear to be a couple of orders of magnitude off in your calculation.
A lot of people understand the risk is much lower than the measures used to contain it, such as full school closures and closing parks and playgrounds. In retrospect I hope we can admit at least those preventative measures were a mistake.
My fear is that if another more serious virus lands on the scene, there will be no credibility to do it again.
A school is neither a park nor a playground. Schools are mostly indoors, mostly in inexpensive buildings with correspondingly poor ventilation and/or air filtering, and have a lot of people talking and breathing the same air. This is a totally different situation.
From the OP, it seems clear that virus is airborne, spreads in clusters and people spread it before showing any symptoms. I am open to suggestions on what are the alternative ways of stopping the spread?
It's not about whether the current restrictions are the best or not. It's about whether anything should be done at all as evidenced by critics' lack of concrete proposals of what they would do instead. Presumably nothing.
Even if that's true, I keep hearing that argument and I think I'll keep hearing it a lot in the future which makes sense as we try to justify what happened. But it's not based on reality considering that the anti lockdown side had a pretty clear plan: quarantine those most vulnerable, spend any fraction of the enormous resources we spent on locking down everything on making sure to provide for those people. That way we could've also focused the testing capacity & PPE on a lot less people, making it that much easier to isolate them from the virus. Instead of allocating thr same amount of resources regardless of how at risk someone was.
You can disagree with the position but I'm not sure how you could argue that it's "doing nothing".