Amazon Union Election: 'No' Votes Outnumber 'Yes' Votes So Far | Hacker News Reader

Amazon Union Election: 'No' Votes Outnumber 'Yes' Votes So Far

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21 pointsnimbius29 comments

I find it incredibly strange that people are talking about this vote as though the score is settled. It's literally the very first day - how can you possibly know the end result right now? Regardless of where you stand on the issue it makes absolutely no sense to make assumptions now.

I'm not American, so my perception of this is skewed through whatever media I consume. My understanding is that America doesn't have fantastic worker protections or a high minimum wage, and unionizing would allow workers more leverage in demanding these things.

If you think these workers should unionize, why, and what are the benefits?

If you think these workers are better off without a union, why? What are the benefits of not being in a union?

Benefits include being able to demand better working conditions such as reduced work quotas, increased time for bathroom breaks, better pay, and more sick time and/or better shift scheduling. Union work in the US tends to pay a lot more because they have negotiating power. Amazon can afford anything but squeezes their workforce constantly.

It's not necessarily a union they need, the US (and also globally Amazon) just needs to stop exploiting people as hard as they can just because they can. It's a sick impulse that a lot of people try to justify as "you must because shareholders", which is both wrong and meaningless besides.

Of course, given the majority no votes so far the chances of people taking their individual responsibility (either to speak up or otherwise improve the lot of their fellows) is pretty low.

There is no such thing as "just stop exploiting people".

The ethos of the modern society is "make as much money as you can no matter how" and the best way to make big money is exploiting people.

You can make good money without exploiting people and it is what small businesses do, but you won't be a multi billionaire corp following ethics, law, and treating people respectfully.

Unfortunately, being a multi billion business implies you will squeeze every single penny from suppliers, employees and customers and it is exactly what Amazon does.

Unions cost money, in the form of dues from employees and expenses for the company. It's up to each person to decide if the benefits of union protection outweigh those costs in their situation. So far, for this Amazon warehouse, the answer seems to be that they don't.

Some unions, not all, in the US tend to become bureaucratic entities in and of themselves, mostly dedicated to their own survival. They become unresponsive to member interests, mostly settle for middle of the road solutions (pay based on seniority, not performance; protect your members from being fired no matter what - even from things like incompetence or criminal behavior). They also tend to have very adversarial relationships with management (goals seem more aligned in Europe) business not doing well? Fuck you, we want a raise.

Again, there are good unions in the US. But there have been some bad apples that sour workers and make them doubt they will be better off.

If not unions, some power structure must make for better working environments and conditions for people. It was once that someone working full time could afford a life. Amazon touts their $15 an hour like it’s something, but that’s lower than the industry average for warehouse workers. The quotas on warehouse workers and drivers are insane. Can’t wait for America to go back to having a real middle class.

Where can I find this information about average warehouse worker pay? Also, Amazon suggests $15 per hour is their minimum pay. Is there any information about their average pay?

Here's the beaureu of labor statistics for "packers"

Warehousing and Storage Hourly mean wage -$16.05

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes537064.htm

Amazon just increased their minimum pay to $15 in 2018 after being pressured. They are the countries second largest employer. The pay is not the only issue. Being at the lowest legal possible amount of protection. Multiple investigative books and stories have come out right around 2018 which Amazon replied by graciously increasing the wages and starting a marketing campaign to fight against the public opinion on working conditions.

And before someone says it, I don't have a vendetta against Amazon specifically. I believe we should fight for worker protections and actual living wages for anyone who works full time. Amazon could be a shining beacon, but their quotas and cost-cutting at any cost leads us to a lowest common denominator society while Bezos gains another 10 billion dollars a year.

For a larger look at the implications, this author goes over a lot of the systemic problems in a podcast synopsis:

https://www.csis.org/podcasts/truth-matter/alec-macgillis-fu...

We need to be clear - 15 is 2x minimum wage.

And minimum wage affects everyone. So these politicos and others even here should probably do a bit more to help workers get the Amazon minimum before trashing Amazon?

The “egregious” conduct is a USPS mailbox? Kind of pathetic

It’s this weird world where Amazon is described as a hell hole and the three layer deep cleaning contractor workforce paying actual min wage and plenty of other crap jobs get a pass

Sorry, who's favorable to the amazon unionization push that is giving a pass to minimum wage three layer deep contractor workforces? This is not the argument anyone is making. They want better working conditions for everyone.

There is extremely good documentation on Amazon low-end workforce abusive practices. Not being able to take bathroom breaks as a driver or warehouse worker because the quota is set too high is a problem. Just having slightly higher than federal minimum wage does not solve those problems.

Working at amazon fulfillment centers IS a bit of a hell hole. The contractor workforces are also hellholes. Poverty in the US is a hell hole. Amazon should not be defended, they should be forced to treat workers with human dignity and respect, because clearly they nor their three layer deep cleaning contractor workforce peers will do it otherwise.

The way to help everyone is to raise the minimum wage - let’s do that. Let’s increase social safety net which helps everyone. Continue to expand Obamacare even. Consider basic universal income. Lots of ideas help far more than having a few companies unionize

All for it. Also workplace protections with teeth.

The minimum wage in itself doesn't help. [0] Real wage increase is needed.

Also tangentially related: https://stayathomemacro.substack.com/p/racism-skews-our-beli...

[0] "In the long-run, however, employers have far more flexibility. They can replace labor with capital. They can replace low-skilled workers with higher-skilled workers." - https://www.econlib.org/archives/2017/07/minimally_convi.htm... (note, Caplan is a libertarian)

Is there a specific list of things the union will push for (more pay? Shorter shifts? Which benefits etc)? I can't find one among the deluge of poop on Google either saying unions are amazing or terrible...

The best I found was this, it had a sprinkling of facts and figures:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/feb/23/amazon-be...

I’m sure there won’t be any commentary other than “these voters were fooled by Amazon!” As if the workers there have no agency and no logical thought processes that would make them think for themselves that the union would be anything but negative.

I expect to hear about how Amazon’s propaganda was too effective. Or questions asking “why are these workers voting against their own self interest?”.

Everything but these workers just choosing what’s best for them.

I thought the whole point was that what's best for them is increased wages, better working conditions and benefits?

Granted I live in a country with significantly stronger worker protections and none of that nonsense in which quitting my job might mean losing healthcare (and in some cases, for my family to as well; that is a messed up employer-holding-my-family-hostage situation that gives an employer breathtaking power over employees), but given how much these precariously employed people seem to get routinely screwed over by their employers who have vast power compared to their employees, how else are they to improve their job? If they think they can do better for themselves without a union, without banding together to get some strength with which to negotiate, what is that alternative that presumably they're planning?

Genuine question. I'm sure it comes across as snark, but from my outside-the-US viewpoint, I don't see any way that these Amazon employees are going to get better wages, conditions and benefits without banding together.

People are regularly encouraged to use their democratic power to vote against their own self-interest (this is a strategy used time and time again, typically by right wing parties). Amazon has a strong interest in preventing unionisation to protect profits and has been documented using many methods, including underhand ones, to achieve this. Unionisation offers more potential for driving positive change than doing nothing. These are facts.

Is it possible that an individual has ignored all outside influences and made a personal evaluation based purely on their own analysis and research? Of course. Is this how politics works in the real world? Clearly not.

Funny how this talk of agency disappears when people talk about people they don't like, for example, voters in authoritarian states.

That's a huge trouncing and shows Amazon workers clearly reject the idea of unionization. It's clear the media will continue to push their agenda in favor of unions, though.

As long as union campaigners refuse to acknowledge the past disasters associated with unionization, particularly in the auto industry and more recently the gas industry, they'll continue to be met with overwhelming rejection.

Reform or die.

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