Ask HN: How to study programming language theory as a non CS student? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How to study programming language theory as a non CS student?

21 pointsck_one25 comments

Hi, I would love to understand programming languages on a more abstract level. What do they have in common and why? Why has language A feature A but not feature B?

I am an EE/Robotics student and program everyday but I feel like am lacking some deeper knowledge about programming languages which holds me back from becoming a better developer.

What course/book can you recommend?

EDIT: I have written quite a bit of code in Python (Pytorch/Tensorflow), do my coding interviews in C++, and also have experience in web dev with JavaScript (NextJS). I am looking for a CS50 like course. I was thinking of going through the "Writing an Interpreter in Go" course. But would rather learn something less implementation oriented.

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The "Programming Languages" three part series by Dan Grossman is excellent.

https://www.coursera.org/learn/programming-languages https://www.coursera.org/learn/programming-languages-part-b https://www.coursera.org/learn/programming-languages-part-c

I am Mechanical Engineering graduate pursuing my Masters in Software Systems after 10+ years of industry experience.

Attack the Type System first. Do not read PhD research papers, just the practical aspects of it:

- Why is it that integers I am working with are 8-bit (or 16-bit or 32-bit ...)?

- What is "int x = 7;" translated into by the compiler?

- How is basic arithmetic implemented in the hardware? Integers, floating point etc.

- If my system has 16-bit integers, for example, how can I deal with larger numbers than what 16 bits can accommodate? Some SW implementation to hide HW limitations?

Then go on to understand how more complex types are implemented etc.

From there go on to things like Stack Frames and Heaps and Application Binary Interfaces.

From there go on to memory clean up and why we need Garbage Collectors etc.

...

To me, a Programming Language is a set of rules (enforced by a compiler or interpreter) for deterministic bits manipulation. The Type System is the core set of rules around which everything else revolves. Even lack of a Type System in a language is a Type System.

There's not much theory (unless you want to do research). Common practical topics all base on history/cruft and "current vector"(like C, JavaScript, C++, Java, Python). In the end ability to solve problem wins and it's based on ecosystem size/polish mostly.

If you want fancier designs then look into less mainstream languages (elixir, pony, haskell, swift, rust, kotlin, ocaml, zig, julia, lobster). All of them have some innovations that try to solve common problems faced in (specific) software development or languages.

Generally tradeofs are between speed(runtime, compile), size, correctness and usability.

There are kinda two approaches to programming langs, one from CPU perspective(C) and other from math perspective(Haskell, Lisp, Prolog). There are also pragmatic langs for biulding bigger systems where readability and pragmatism is king (Java, Ada, Go) There's also handling of async/parallel stuff that's not well solved yet AFAIK but most developed is BEAM VM and Haskell/Pony.

To understand CPU perspective I can recommend book "CODE". Other perspecive probably SICP course.

I am average dev so maybe some lang researchers can provide more info.

Thanks for the book recommendation. Just bought it.

You are welcome. Just to clarify now for others I meant "Code: The Hidden Language of Computer Hardware and Software" (couldn't find exact title on mobile)

For an "average dev", you really nailed it. Great post.

> In the end ability to solve problem wins

Absolutely true. Languages are tools. They're not religions, they're not rock bands or sports teams, they're just tools. Pick which one works best to get the job done. Not which one is best for "programming in general", whatever that is, but which one is best for the program you're trying to write. That includes ecosystem (library, IDE support, etc.), your own familiarity and that of your coworkers, existing code base that could be re-used, etc. That doesn't always mean "pick the familiar language", but it means that you need to have fairly compelling reason to not do so.

Which, I guess, is to not answer the original question. If you want to study programming language theory or design, go for it. Enjoy! But if you're a working programmer, don't get lost in the theory. In the end, ability to solve problems wins.

> How to study programming language theory

I think the information you're looking for would probably come under the umbrella of "Programming Language Design", not "Programming Language Theory" (PLT). Discussions on language design would include topics such as object-oriented vs functional programming, static vs dynamic typing and, importantly, language usability.

However in my experience, PLT is almost entirely concerned with academic research into the properties of highly-advanced type systems. Most of PLT seems to be irrelevant even to the designers of industrial languages, let alone users of them.

Thanks for the clarification. I am indeed more interested in Programming Language Design. Do you have pointers to intro texts which provide practical value?

You mention "Writing an Interpreter in Go" - are you familiar with the similar book, "Crafting Interpreters" [0]? It's highly recommended by many but, again, may be more implementation-oriented than you're looking for. In that case, here is a list of other books that its author seems to recommend [1].

Another thing I've found very helpful is to investigate the details behind how existing languages work. It's especially interesting to think about how language flaws are sometimes unavoidable consequences of the underlying design.

For example, you mention familiarity with Python. Dynamically-typed scripting languages are my area of interest, so I have spent time making sense of Python's object model [2], including things like the descriptor protocol. It's then interesting to compare it to Ruby's object model [3], which despite surface similarities actually works in a completely different way.

[0] http://www.craftinginterpreters.com/

[1] https://twitter.com/munificentbob/status/901543375945388032

[2] https://docs.python.org/3/reference/datamodel.html

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2sgQ38UDVY

> However in my experience, PLT is almost entirely concerned with academic research into the properties of highly-advanced type systems.

The Brown PLT group [1], responsible for the Racket programming language in particular, is a notable counterexample. But it's still a shame that I can't give any other counterexamples. (I used to joke that everything PLT but not type theory comes from the Brown PLT. It sounds no longer funny.)

[1] https://cs.brown.edu/research/plt/

I personally started with The Seasoned Schemer, but I would recommend starting with SICP instead.

The best way to get into programming languages is learning different languages, play with them and write relatively complex applications in them. LISP and C are the most fundamental languages that will give the aha moments. In addition to those, I would learn Haskell and perhaps some object oriented language.

> I would love to understand programming languages on a more abstract level.

Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (SICP) - https://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.037/sicp.pdf

To find out more about the decisions on language features just read material from the language creators and core contributors.

Thanks, that's kind of what I am looking for. Do you know an intro text which is a bit more concise?

Agreed: building various flavors of interpreters (such as in SICP) is an effective way to gain an understanding of different abstract semantics and how they compare.

You might also like "Programming Languages: Application and Interpretation":

1st ed: https://web.archive.org/web/20150926000110/http://cs.brown.e...

2nd ed: https://web.archive.org/web/20210121232912/http://cs.brown.e...

Also recommend lurking on http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/ to find material that interests you.

There is the Harvard CS50 class.

There are also millions of pages on things like python vs javascript, react vs angular . Developers have lots of opinions so you shouldn't find it too hard to find out why languages have different features.

CS50 is great but it isn't about programming languages.

You might find the following two books helpful;

1. Programming Language Pragmatics by Michael Scott.

2. Concepts, Techniques and Models of Computer Programming by Peter Van Roy, Seif Haridi.

Thanks! These are the types of books I am looking for. Do you know any books which explain the same principles but cover modern languages like Python, C++ and Scala? This would allow me to apply the knowledge more directly in my daily work.

Don't quite understand your question. I had assumed that you wanted to understand about various computation models as encompassed by the various categories of languages i.e. imperative/object-oriented/functional/logic/concurrent/etc. The above mentioned books cover that with the principles being transferable to any language you might choose to focus on.

I would say that the best way to start understanding the different programming languages is not by leaning a generic course about programming languages features, but to pick one read about it and try to write a short project and then switch to another different language.

I would start with a low level language like C, then move to a more higher level like Java and finally end with a more "modern" language like Rust or Go.

Good advice to get started. I think I am past that point already. I use C++ for coding interviews, JavaScript (NextJS/React) for web dev side projects and Python (Pytorch/Tensorflow) for my research work.

Read the book Types and Programming Languages by Benjamin C. Pierce: https://flylib.com/books/en/4.279.1/ Do all the exercises and implement the toy language described in the book.

I think maybe the Programming Languages A, B, C on Coursera is what you are looking for. https://www.coursera.org/learn/programming-languages

I would point you towards Racket and https://beautifulracket.com/

The greater Racket ecosystem is a very accessible resource.

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