The Clock in the Mountain | Hacker News Reader

The Clock in the Mountain

kk.org

A much more interesting read than I was expecting. My first reaction after a few sentences was "What a waste of time and effort." Then just spending a few minutes thinking about what around me is more than a few years old kind of got to me. What around me is more than 100, 1000, 10000 years old? Where I live in Salt Lake there are hardly any human made structures older than 100 years, and none more than 160. The oldest building I've been to personally was in London, on the order of 1000 years old. It's humbling to think about how short of a span that is in human history. Almost disturbing to think about what I will do or make that will last 100, 1000, or 10000 years.

In 100 years I hope to have grandchildren who knew me still living.

In 1000 years it's a stretch that there will still be an accurate note of my existence.

In 10000 there may not even be a myth about the existence of any of us here.

Thinking on such a long term scale is so weird that it seems hokey or even wildly eccentric at first glance. But crafting a message for generations beyond ourselves is too beautiful an undertaking to ignore.

Agreed, I think our dislike of long-term thinking leads to many of our most fundamental human problems.

10,000 years from now, I'm going to remind you that you said that, and we'll both think it was pretty funny.

I hope so. What's really funny is I was reading through some of your articles on lessWrong just this morning and almost put in a caveat along the lines of "Assuming no singularity event".

Out of curiousity, how confident are you about the general idea of humanity surviving and in a good state? I know your work focuses on the idea that AI, poorly implemented, will probably destroy everything of value; so how confident are you that it will be well implemented?

It's possible. Due to HN I recently found a relative who was alive 10000+ years ago. He was a mariner, was around 20 when he died. Was found back in 1996 in On Your Knees Cave, Prince of Wales Island, Alaska. After a HN story on DNA Day and a 23andMe discount, found out my mtDNA is Haplogroup D4h3a. So we have the same maternal hereditary line, even though I'm like 91% european.

I also recommend Stewart Brand's book about the (then-hypothetical) Clock: http://www.amazon.com/Clock-Long-Now-Stewart-Brand/dp/produc...

In the book, Brand argues that: (1) it's very difficult to have a general conversation about the 10,000 year future without descending into vapid generalities; but (2) with a concrete engineering goal like building a clock, it's possible to have much more focused and interesting discussions.

The Long Now seminar series is also excellent: http://longnow.org/seminars/

There is also the connection between the Long Now project and Neal Stephenson’s excellent novel Anathem:

http://blog.longnow.org/2008/07/21/anathem-and-long-now/

Another similarity is to Asimov's The Foundation. A fictional organization with a very very long-term plan built on the imagined science of psychohistory.

I went in search of "what happens if vandals try to destroy the thing?" and ended up reading Bruce Sterling from 2000 touching on that issue and many others.

http://blog.longnow.org/2008/08/03/bruce-sterlings-sharp-war...

The clock is also geographically remote (by design). You have to drive hours to get there and then hike a little ways. This should dissuade casual vandals. The long approach was also designed to dissuade casual visitors, making a clock visit something like a pilgrimage.

Good point. However, "geographically remote" today and "geographically remote" within 10,000 years might not be the same thing.

Those interested should stop by the Long Now's offices in San Francisco's Fort Mason area. They have various pieces and prototypes there, as well as fun things from their other projects. It's first on my list of great places for nerds to visit in San Francisco:

http://www.quora.com/Which-places-should-a-technophile-visit...

What an inspiring undertaking. I hope to visit the project when it is complete as it is only a few hours drive from where I live.

Favorite picture in the article: Stuart Brand standing in front of the 8-foot replica wearing what can only be described as a Tibetan Monk's robe / Snuggie hybrid. He looks like an old, very comfortable wizard.

BTW, that's a traditional Moroccan cloak, dyed with indigo ink :) It's mentioned he just got back from there.

It's called a Jalaba, I got one when I visited Morocco.

A related, but more poetic, clock was done by the artist Tim Hawkinson in the early 2000s. It's a 24-foot long series of gears, driven by a toy motor. The last wheel rotates once every ~100 years.

http://fromthefloor.blogspot.com/2005/04/style-beyond-fashio...

This has been shown in several places, including in retrospectives at LACMA and the Whitney.

Tim's work has a homemade aesthetic.

To me, the piece is about the inspiration and the folly of engineering. We build these systems which have design elements that can last for 100 years. We plan for it as if it will really happen. But because we have such a tenuous understanding of made objects at such time scales, there's an element of hubris, folly, fore-ordained failure.

Another, quite different piece of Tim's is this minute bird sculpted from his own fingernail clippings:

http://flyingoutofthisworld.blogspot.com/2008/01/tim-hawkins...

This is beautiful, wonderful, hopeful, and sad all at once. Stuff like this, the voyager probes... I dont know, really get to me.

I was also reminded of reading Asimov's Foundation novels in middle school.

And how about that solar synchronization mechanism. I mean Jesus, how amazing.

Consider what wild theories may be concocted when knowledge of it is lost then rediscovered (a la "aliens built the pyramids!").

It will definitely be a Stone Henge of our time.

I think it's fascinating that someone can construct something so long-lasting. It synchronizes itself to noon and powers itself using thermal energy. Amazing.

A meta comment - this is unreadable on my mobile. The nav bar or something keeps insisting on overlaying itself on the page, and I'm screwed. Most annoying.

Web developers have known for a long time that they need to deal with a plethora of browsers, and now mobile as well. I don't underestimate the difficulty, but please keep the mobile user in mind, and if you screw them, at least be aware you're doing it.

Hmm... glad to hear that validation for a little project of mine to make this easy https://github.com/kevinpet/bender

I've been following design and construction of the Clock for years now and it's great to see such progress being made. I can't find them now but there have been a number of very interesting articles through the years looking at finding 10Kyear-capable materials for the clock, the process of finding/creating things to put into the chambers the clock will live in, etc. It's been a great process to watch and I look forward to getting to go see the clock when it's complete.

Anyone seeking an intelligent speculation of how such clocks might work in human society should read Stephenson's "Anathem". Outstanding, if challenging stuff.

I was reminded of Doc from The Power of One. No spoilers- just a strong recommendation that you read this book.

This is about as close to a universal notion of spiritualism as I can imagine... A very profound and moving project which has already touched me surprisingly deeply on the idea of what it is to be part of our society. Wow.

Given the roughly 1 million year species lifetime of typical mammals, and the fact that our descendant species are also likely to be quite intelligent, ten thousand years may only be a short time. :D

This clock is the most inspiring thing I've seen in a long time. I love it... Which I could be part of it.

I think this project is like the opposite of Lulzsec (short term and hedonistic) ;-)

Reading the description of the visit I got some strange and vaguely familiar feeling and only later realized that was the feeling I got playing Myst…

I love the idea, and hope that Siera Diablo doesn't have too many earthquakes. With all of it's size and robustness, it still looks like a fragile thing.

I would have preferred that money going to sens. let's beat death, not build monuments to it.

I agree, but not everyone would; http://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html

"How do you become one of those time-conscious beings who visit and wind the Clock? Jeff Bezos has just launched a public web site, 10000-year-clock, where interested folks can register their desire to visit the Clock in the Mountain when it is finished many years from now. Bezos has said he will give some kind of preference to current members of the Long Now Foundation because the purpose of the Clock is to promote what the Foundation promotes: long-term thinking."

It's kind of sad that the clock is on private property and in the hands of some business man. It would be pretty pathetic if he tries making a profit from its operation, or tries to make it in to a theme park.

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