Masks distributed in Canada with microscopic graphene potentially toxic | Hacker News Reader

Masks distributed in Canada with microscopic graphene potentially toxic

cbc.ca

159 pointsSQL2219108 comments

Wow, this seems like 4chan conspiracy theory becoming reality. Will the worm one turn out to be true too?

On a side note, what kind of idiot puts graphene in masks, when its so widely known that graphene is a carcinogen. How can this not be maliciously done.

exactly. I have even seen a video where they found one on a test kit that you push all the way thru your nose.

They're manufactured in China, where quality control can be low to non-existent. My best guess is that somehow the batches got contaminated in the factory.

The current admin in Canada has spent the majority of the pandemic failing to vet companies properly, so this is very unsurprisingly to me.

Masks being discussed were made in Canada:

> ..SNN200642 masks made by a Quebec-based manufacturer are being recalled..

> Radio-Canada has obtained documents showing Health Canada warned of the potential for "early pulmonary toxicity" from the SNN200642 masks which are made in China and sold and distributed by Métallifer, a Quebec-based manufacturer.

The article says that they are made in China, the company is based in Quebec.

It's not a question of quality control.

The masks were advertised as containing graphene. It was supposedly used for filtration.

I wonder if the Quebec government tested the masks for things like this? Especially, considering:

> Back in December, the Quebec government revealed that masks it had been distributing for months to more than 15,000 daycares across the province did not meet safety standards, and daycare staff were ordered to stop using them.

> Between May and November, the ministry distributed 31.1 million MC9501 masks throughout the network to protect staff from COVID-19, but they were determined to be unfit for use.

Fool me once...

What should they have tested for besides graphene? Is there some list of contaminants which you feel would be a minimum requirement for their testing, which includes graphene?

Moreover do you know what kinds of tests they actually did perform? Without knowing that, how can you judge whether the level of testing was adequate or not? Have you looked into the rate of contaminants being found on their competitors products? Etc.

You are right, I was quick to judge without knowing. Thanks.

Agree, with the caveat that specific testing for graphene is actually not trivial (it is fundamentally carbon). But functional safety testing, supplier surveys, etc can be put in place to catch this sort of issue upstream.

It's really not an issue of testing.

It's much worse - it's written on the box that there is graphene in it.

Sounds like they bought first and then tested later. Not a bad strategy for equipment in short supply.

I was wondering if that will bubble over... it kinda looked like way too many videos were spreading on 4chan for it to be fake, but we'll see. Really odd with those videos and the "graphene strands" start wiggling - probably just graphene exposed to heat?

I expect things there to be faked. Anyone with credibility seen the videos care to comment?

When air moves around small fibers, they move. Look at literally any fibrous material under a microscope and you'll see this -- it's really cool to see exactly how small individual fibers in a thread are!

Yeah but the videos are more than just "air" - they don't move until applied moisture/heat then they move on their own without more. Kind of like those Japanese dishes with little flakes on them?

Anyone with frizzy hair can conclusively tell you inert, dead material can change with moisture/heat.

You're doing a generalization without looking at the vid... why not look?

I did.

As a kid, I had these: https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Capsules-various-themes-package...

They moved, grew and changed shape when put in water, too. That doesn't make them alive.

Or this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGPfSSUlReM

A thin strand of material moving around when put in water is not at all surprising to me.

> They moved, grew and changed shape when put in water, too. That doesn't make them alive.

Or they were alive and part of a shadow operation to deploy an army of plasticky animals into homes.

So a cell isn't alive? It moves in a stream of water and other stuff(s). I guess not that surprising.

A cell is alive.

Some things move because they're alive. Some living things don't move. Some non-living things move, too.

Movement is not conclusive evidence of life. These videos - setting aside the legitimacy of 4chan for a moment - demonstrate "if you put the fiber in water, it moves", not "these fibers are alive".

Well, given that there exists no formal definition of life then that's just like, your opinion, man.

I say that in jest, but, it has merit. Any definition you try will be contested, even in academia.

We had similar drama with masks distributed in Belgium. They contain nanoparticles of silver. The government gave an official recommendation to stop wearing them.

Original report: https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/belgium-all-news/156628/c...

Follow-up recommendation: https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/belgium-all-news/156876/b...

I'm still wearing mine because I don't go out often enough for it to matter (and when I do, I'm usually on a bicycle where it's not required to wear one). But what a fucked up story. I really thought this would be the end of it: anti-maskers "won", are set for life with an argument on a silver platter now. With actual silver.

Surprisingly, though, that didn't happen. People have been pretty chill about it.

Geez... I bought masks in the street market here in Rotterdam (Netherlands), and now I'm worried. Thankfully, I only wear them a few minutes a day, when I go to public closed spaces.

Graphene is all the rage. The best thing since sliced bread (or, perhaps more accurately in this case, the best thing since radium water).

It sounds advanced and science, with Nobel prizes and stuff. I am not surprised it sells.

I didn't know it was classified as a carcinogen, what are your sources on this?

There are some studies with carbon nanotubes and mesothelioma. Hard to say if graphene would have the same effect, but it seems plausible as CNTs are essentially graphene tubes.

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)...

Cheap bulk methods for graphene production will also create other modifications of carbon such as nanotubes. So even if Graphene should be harmless, it might be impure and therefore dangerous.

Ok, ill bite...What worm one?

Its not the one I've seen before. But here's two

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG4xyX-1MAc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJd4NBEFAkg

I also just read people are reporting them on the test swabs. I literally just got a test lmao.

I'm sure this has a reasonable explanation though, right?

https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=ceejayoz

Any dead material with moisture or air exposed to it will cause it to move. Typical really!

I poke because, I mean of course we're considering those things. I am not trying to peddle conspiracy theories. I want to fundamentally know why; generalizations don't help here.

Yeah, I've honestly gotten to the point where I'm not surprised by anything anymore and can't tell truth from fiction.

Another fun one is the use of Ethylene Oxide to sterilize the swabs. It is a carcinogen but it seems like it's is used in many places.

It was just funny that I stumbled on the ethylene and worm thing _after_ I got my test today.

It's absurd really. Thankfully I'm hearing others with similar introspections. I was feeling quite crazy. Maybe we'll come out of this okay by being curious.

Yeah I like to remain optimistic, IMO that is the only way to stay sane.

It's just funny how total opposite realities can coexist. I get a NYT daily email which makes it sound like everything is okay, vaccines are working great, etc, then I can spend 10 minutes reading `/r/conspiracy` and it really throws you upside down. Not to say that everything said there is true (I know most of it is likely bs), but I enjoy seeing the total opposites ends of the spectrum.

This is quite literally the myth involving ham or pork and soda pop. Of course in that case the "worms" were just the fat moving and solidifying from the carbonation. This time it is someone, apparently for the first time, discovering that wickable* fibers found in masks tend to move about when liquid is absorbing into or evaporating from them. Of course these fibers are in a lot of other places, including your winter clothing and anything else absorbent you might happen to wear.

Someone in another response pointed out the Japanese dishes with dry bonito flakes that move around in animate style when subjected to steam. It's exactly the same thing.

* Wickable might not be a real word. I mean "able to wick" as any absorbant fiber can.

> On a side note, what kind of idiot puts graphene in masks, when its so widely known that graphene is a carcinogen. How can this not be maliciously done.

It says it's made in China.

http://cml.harvard.edu/publicationposts/2019

https://www.modernatx.com/mrna-technology/mrna-platform-enab...

Not weird at all.

If the photo is accurate, I can't imagine anyone seriously using those masks !

If I got a box of masks that looked like it was previously worn by a chimney-sweep, I would either return them to the seller or dispose of them. They look filthy !

Neither would I, but it seems like a thing for some masks to include charcoal so maybe people are thinking it's that and some just leaked out?

Also, according to the article, "some daycare educators had been suspicious of these grey and blue masks for a while because they felt like they were swallowing cat hair while wearing them."

People must have been ordered to wear them; who would wear these by choice?

This is why Governments shouldn't be allowed to force these sort of things. Governments can be and often are wrong.

Also add to this potential influence by malicious actors.

And governments are also largely immune (pun intended) from prosecution once their error is revealed.

Who governs the government!? Surely a disarmed population.

Give an example of an armed population which has effectively governed its government.

Well, at the moment that hardly seems relevant since the arms governments worldwide have are SO radically powerful as to completely imbalance the relationship. Not merely physical are their weapons either.

Let me just say, it's nice to see a sane comment every once in a while. The world seems to have gone completely off the deep end and is throwing itself at the mercy of petty authoritarian bureaucrats.

The government didn't force anyone to use these masks in particular, they were just given for free. Hospitals sometimes forced you to use their own masks when entering the premise but even private hospitals did that on their own, but in daycares and schools these just happened to be free so people use them to save money.

What? That is a genuinely optimistic statement.

The "forcing" way through brute shaming and various 'strict guidelines of social distancing'

Much forcing all around...

I live in the province in question.

The issue isn't wearing masks, it's specifically those masks, which around I think around 1% of the masks in circulation.

All other masks are fine. By and large, the government itself doesn't force anyone to wear those masks instead of others.

Thankfully I'm starting to read sane comments again. Yes.

No, people weren't ordered to wear them. Daycare educators are largely independent of the government beyond inspections every few months and heavy subsidies.

The masks were given for free, and there is a mask mandate. Daycares used free government provided masks instead of their own to save money.

When you enter a medical institution here, the security make you exchange your current mask for a new one they give you. If you refuse, they don't let you in and you miss your appointment so its not like you get a "choice" about taking them. Anyways that's my story of how I got exposed, hooray!

Yeah, I was asked to remove my NOISH N95 and put on a surgical mask. How about no?

If it really says NOISH, it's a counterfeit. Heh.

I have a 3M filter number 2091 with a fab date in 2017. It's clearly stamped with NIOSH.

Got a source on your claim?

Edit 2: I missed the joke :)

I assume they are making a joke about how you initially wrote NOISH.

NOISH != NIOSH.

My medical facility let me put on the surgical mask over the N95 (the guy handing them out actually suggested it when I was obviously hesitant to exchange). It's at least worth a try next time - double masking, FTW?

For those downvoting without comment: huh, really?

A surgical mask provides demonstrably worse protection vs N95, and doubling them up adds a bit to the protection of both the wearer and the surrounding people, as well as complying with their rule, which allows double masking.

Kaiser has this policy when getting an in person test. I have n95s so I simply put the disposable blue thing over my main one. (another needed story I think at least some are counterfeit)

Activated carbon masks are used for filtering volatile vapors. They aren't needed in a medical environment.

No one will be held accountable here, but there really should be consequences to this level of sloppiness. Since these were resold by a third-party, it means that someone looked at this without any kind of health background and said "That one has graphene in it! The seller said it was better so it must be true.", bought it, and then FORCED educators to wear them.

A quick Google search suggests that SNN200642 masks are advertised as having graphene in them. Googling "biomass graphene" yields a bunch more links, including this one: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0371/0792/5125/products/3_...

A Chinese patent for a potentially toxic mask material?

Graphene has a potential to be the asbestos of our era.

Damaged strands can be inhaled in same way and end up in your lungs. I have never looked into that and only glanced at papers on the impact of inhalation of graphene. It seems like graphene will build up in the lungs but not shred them like the asbestos does.

Still its a new material I would be cautious of using it.

Related, mesothelioma from CNTs (in mice/rats): https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)...

We haven't even fully borne out the research for plastic polymers breaking down and getting into lungs. I have all but conceded to a drastically increased likelihood of cancer in my lifetime thanks to how flippant we are with particulates.

Doubly Related: Quebec's Asbestos (city) recently got renamed in part due to the stigma.

> Patrick Baillargeon, who is charge of purchasing Quebec's laboratory supplies, warns in a letter that Health Canada has not received any data to support the safety and efficacy of face masks containing graphene particles and therefore considers the risks associated with these medical devices unacceptable.

This makes it sound like the graphene is there on purpose?

Yes, it is. I work in a university and we were given these masks. The inside is dark grey instead of white, and it even advertises on the box that they are made with graphene.

I have worn them for long periods and so have many of my colleagues. I have not felt any throat scratching as described in the news, however.

My brother was given this mask.

The graphene wasn't contaminated there or anything, it was actually put there on purpose. Shame on the manufacturer, the importer and the government.

This issue was brought to the attention of the government agyer a citizen was concerned over the presence of graphene and contacted the authorities.

> Some daycare educators had been suspicious of these grey and blue masks for a while because they felt like they were swallowing cat hair while wearing them, Radio-Canada has learned.

Really? If they were this bad, why the hell did they let people keep using them?? By now we all know how wearing a mask is supposed to feel, that sensation alone should have been enough to at least pause distribution.

People assume something sold as a protective mask is safe.

My brother wore that mask, he didn't feel this way from it, actually he didn't feel any difference from normal masks.

Maybe they did, or maybe it's a coincidence and something else made them feel this way.

I'm willing to bet someone thought that because of how extremely fine graphene is, it would be even better than activated charcoal for filtering tiny particles. That of course ignores that it is a super-fine particle of the kind you should be filtering instead.

It all reminds me of how coal miners used to purposely inhale McIntyre Powder, which was pulverized aluminum, to protect their lungs, only to end up with different medical problems.

Unflatteringly, this also happened in Canada. Apparently we never learn.

> Some daycare educators had been suspicious of these grey and blue masks for a while because they felt like they were swallowing cat hair while wearing them, Radio-Canada has learned.

Cat hair!

Fwiw, no one I know that used them felt anything, even an asthmatic. Which doesn't make it any less dangerous, but yeah if everyone felt that way it would be even worse to take so long to act.

Finally real application of graphene! /s

No need for this new stuff, my old asbestos mask is practically indestructible.

I had no idea graphene could be used in products like this. I always thought it was expensive and fragile, could only be made in small quantities, and that there were no cheap and efficient and ways to mass produce it?

We got to start manufacturing everything locally.

How would that address issues like this?

Not! it was just a troll. They are numerous these days trying to get people into their political discourse traps...

I think it allows locality of decision making. So imagine if your state/provincial government had authority to set tighter regulations on these goods, or physically inspect facilities, or whatever else. They may not have the same reach or ability to control manufacturing elsewhere. Likewise, some other jurisdiction might decide this is NOT important to regulate or invest their time/resources on, and if so, that would be their choice.

>tighter regulations on these goods

Why can't we do this for imports?

>physically inspect facilities

Why not just inspect the finished product like we could do with imports?

I'm not against domestic manufacturing and in fact I think many governments should be creating more incentives for domestic manufacturing for economic reasons. Insisting on domestic manufacturing in this context has hints of Sinophobia.

The government ordered their goods. The presence of graphene wasn't a secret at least to the importer, and at least the box I saw advertised the presence of graphene.

We should start more local manufacturing.

That said, I don't see what it would do to the issue. It wasn't hidden that there was graphene in the mask or anything, at least to the importer, that's why they were reported by a citizen that knew the dangers of graphene.

The whole ridiculousness of the Covid paranoia...

People get the governments they deserve.

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