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Comment by hkarthik | Hacker News Reader

It's an interesting argument that you lay out, and as agnostic that came from a religious family, it's something that I've personally grappled with. In the absence of religion, where do people find their moral and ethical compass? I wasn't raised atheist, and when I ask atheists this question they often dismiss it as not important or obvious. I feel like that's half the reason religion persists, because they actually attempt to answer such questions with respect.

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Have you considered that it is not important, that it is obvious?

As a person that wasn't raised religious, the concept that you need religion to find a moral and ethical compass seems weird to me. My parents taught me values, I learned them, society reinforced them. They made sense to me, and I feel bad when I don't follow them. The mechanics of it are pretty simple.

Your line of reasoning is similar to "where does food come from? The grocery store, obviously!"

The underlying question is not how YOU got your moral compass but where do the people who taught you yours - and eventually society as a whole - get theirs.

If it's a set of principles that civil society generally agrees upon, then the rest are implementation details that will vary from situation to situation.

If it's a set of whims of the people in power and will vary regularly and constantly, then "damnation" comes from breaking today's rules.. maybe without even knowing what they are.

Your line of reasoning is similar to "Food comes from animals and plants. But where does animals and plants' food comes from?". Do you want to go all the way up to the Big Bang?

You learn your ethics from a combination of your parents and society, and you update your beliefs during your life, you share them to a younger generation. Repeat since humans acquired a conscience until humans cease to exist. That's all there is to it.

No, that isn’t all there is to it. You are simply ignorant of the foundations of your beliefs.

I can assure you I am not: they include the Roman Empire, the Catholic Church, the Enlightenment, the French Revolution, and Marx.

However, the question was:

> In the absence of religion, where do people find their moral and ethical compass?

That's what I was answering to.

Your comment squares with that guy on the $5 bill and the penny.

“When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion.”

― Abraham Lincoln

This seems to be a very privileged position to have. That if you were taught strong ethics by parents and the right social network, then everyone can obviously/simply have the same?

I think having a moral compass is important, because a lot of people will optimize for themselves in the short term, and screw up society in the long term. But I don't think this is obvious at all to people unless they're taught, or if they are really good at learning from their own mistakes.

I think others have pointed this out to you, but there is a high dependence on people learning this through good parenting, good teachers, and being around the right people, all while having security for things like food, shelter, etc.

Some of those things get wrapped up in the over-arching term called "privilege" but I think there is something to be said for the fact that you can't assume most people are securing these things. But you can assume that in the absence of this kind of security, many people (maybe even most) will lose their moral compass.

> In the absence of religion, where do people find their moral and ethical compass?

You do all the same things, except: (1) you can make your own choices depending on your own reasoning (e.g. you can independently decide whether circumcision/being gay is good or bad, independent of what any religion says), and (2) you’re doing things to be good, not to please god.

In fact, I consider people who are “moral” just because god says so / you fear the consequences / you want to go to heaven to actually be immoral. It’s akin to only helping in an accident if the person is rich - you’re not doing it because it’s the right thing to do, you’re just doing it to get something in return.

Edit: you can also pick any number of philosophical frameworks of morality. Personally I oscillate between golden and silver rules.

1. This view also takes the idea that morality can be reached by reason on faith I am not saying I fully disagree, but even the concept of morality at its core is not rational.

2. It is possible to be religious and do good for the sake of good. Most religious people I know do. I would hope that even if I knew I was going to hell, I would still live the rest of my life on accordance with God's will as it is the right thing to do.

Well, if you’re both religious and do good for the sake of good, then you can still be good without being religious. So that solves (1).

Morality is “rational” as a solution to a game theoretic problem. You can also derive it via evolution (which is also a game theory solution).

Yeah, this is the fundamental disagreement. When discussing morality, I'm not talking about what you are. It is a law that overrides all of us, with true right and true wrong. Without a monotheistic God, these don't exist and morality doesn't either.

The morality your discussing is completely different.

I think nowadays they can come from other people. Pretty much anyone/everyone (so maybe "society" is a good stand-in?) But, originally, perhaps when times were a lot different, the word of the Lord, whichever is your flavor, was more useful in keeping people on a more-fulfilling track. People with strong family ties likely didn't need to be as devout and so the church provided a good net for those alienated from society for many reasons. These days we're a lot more likely to have support and a lot less likely to be outcast (or at least not so severely) for being different.

I am also agnostic-raised-Catholic and this type of question is posed a lot. I don't struggle with it since I feel like I know the answer...BUT A) It's difficult to articulate, B) I can't really prove it, and C) it's also that I just know "the Bible" is very likely NOT the answer which just crosses one possibility off a list.

compassion and empathy shouldn't come from believing in God. It should come from believing that humans are all the same, meaning that you shouldn't do to others what you wouldn't want to be done to yourself because otherwise how could you expect other people to treat you fairly if you yourself don't do it? At least that's where I stand and I attribute this feeling of compassion a lot more to cartoons of the 80s and 90s than I do to what I learned in the church. I'm not in the church anymore because I don't believe in God. But I believe in values and if being in church helps to give you good values then church is worth it for society. I see this pragmatically.

> Where do people find their moral and ethical compass?

I agree that atheists cannot point to a single book that everyone should use to define their moral and ethical compass, but I do think that utilitarianism (either act-based: "we should act always so as to produce the greatest good for the greatest number" or rule based: "we ought to live by rules that, in general, are likely to lead to the greatest good for the greatest number") provides a healthy starting framework.

Utilitarianism: Crash Course Philosophy #36 (10 min) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a739VjqdSI

so depending on how you phrase that question, it can be perceived as an insult. it almost implies that, by default, an atheist wouldn't have a moral compass. I'm not saying you think that, just that it's a plausible interpretation for someone who's already feeling a bit defensive. also some atheists are just obnoxious.

but maybe I can answer your question. I think of morality as a way to rationalize the emotions I feel when someone treats me a certain way or I treat someone else a certain way. my morals are rules I can feel good about following.

I don't feel very defensive about it, but it is definitely insulting to me because to be an insult is about their intent. As far as my dad knew, I was Catholic until 3 months ago (when in reality I've been off that for 20 years) and suddenly I don't have a moral compass. He'll attribute what I have to my upbringing despite him being in absentia for nearly all of it. Cue eye rolling.

I'm atheist, and my answer is simply empathy I guess? I just try to treat others in the same way I want to be treated.

People who say that morality can't exist without religion are scary. If they suddenly lose their faith, are they going to start hurting others? What if their religion has blind spots that doesn't tell them how to behave in a specific situation, or tells them that groups like gays and non-believers are fair game?

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