Xinjiang cotton: Western clothes brands vanish as backlash grows
bbc.com
bbc.com
This boycotting is not limited to consumers. Various celebrities are doing it too. They have terminated their contracts with western clothing brands.
Interestingly, one such celebrity is Dilraba Dilmurat, a Uyghur celebrity who's very famous in China. Her company announced that they're terminating their contract with Adidas.
In addition, many Chinese companies have doubled down and proclaimed that they "support Xinjiang cotton".
Various people have pointed out that they do not believe the forced labor stories, because over 70% of cotton in Xinjiang is picked by machines. Whether you believe this statistic is up to you — I'm simply saying that this statistic has been mentioned.
This comment is in no way meant to endorse, nor to criticize, the Xinjiang situation. I am only commenting on the facts surrounding the boycott by Chinese people.
100 of random celebrities make nearly word for word identical posts within hours of each other?
Your naivete was exploited.
This is a very typical operation by the propaganda ministry.
P.S. I assume you are Chinese, and I cannot believe somebody with that level of intellectual achievement to make it to the West can't see a banal lie, when it is a joke material for local taxi drivers.
You say it's propaganda. From everything I've seen, Chinese propaganda is much more crude and much more official than that. They don't force other people — like celebrities — what to say, they broadcast via state TV channels and they put up huge banners. They have censorship, which means forbidding certain things, but I've never seen them coercing celebrities to say things they don't agree with. In general people can choose to stay quiet and not get involved. Do you have evidence that shows that the celebrity statements are coerced? Again: this is not criticism, I am truly curious about your sources.
From what I understand, nationalism in China is real. Do you perhaps dispute this notion?
Can you comment on past track record? In any of the previous boycotts (for example against Dolce & Gabanna who made a racist video, or against Japan honoring war criminals), have you seen evidence of peopke coerced by the government to say something, or people being prosecuted for staying quiet?
Past track record? I think the events you've mentioned are organic protests, but that is beside the point.
In other news, apparently one of the most popular streamers in China sold CNY 23.52 million worth of Xinjiang cotton products within an hour yesterday (with 12M views). https://www.zaobao.com.sg/realtime/china/story20210327-11345...
Yeah you can tell something like "opinion majority of society align with government anyway", but if it was the case they wouldn't need censorship in first place.
This is not a criticism of your comment. I am truly curious about what you think of that study, and how that fits in this situation.
However, China isn't stupid. Rather, they've often shown to be rather cunning, and it's impossible to know all the times they may use their weight and nobody notices.
I'd liken it to cold war era techniques from the US and Russia. Both sides would often do things wrong on purpose just to muddy the waters or throw red herrings. People at the time thought that the US was clumsy and stupid when a top-secret document was "accidentally" leaked, but it was done on purpose to track spies, waste Russia's resources, etc. I do not put it past China to have multiple prongs here, with the clumsy antics simply a smokescreen for the real propaganda. Obviously, this cannot be proven, but like I said, there are lots of lessons in history of this being the case with other states. They have lots of textbook examples to follow.
So I'm curious: what makes you believe that China is cunning? Is there anything you can show me?
A propaganda rap song? Really?? This is typical Chinese propaganda. How is this "cunning"?
I very much do. I've seen a few nationalist, but nationalism as such in China is not real.
The prime majority of people in China are completely apolitical, because they are afraid to get involved. Mainland Chinese are probably the most apolitical nation out there.
And of the few nationalists I've seen, none would come up in the open, and shout "I LOVE CHINAAAA," not even the dumbest ones. And none of those were normal people. One was a tech millionaire, another probably was already an insider to the system, and there were few idle socialite-intellectuals supported by rich parents who moved to the West.
The highly visible nationalism you see in China which pops out of nowhere, and disappears without a trace a day after is of a theatrical kind.
Although, are political participation and nationalism the same thing, or even strongly related? Can't people harbor strong nationalist sentiment while still being apolitical?
In the context of China, no. Maybe in other countries, where the ruling party have not spent the last 100 years making an ideological singularity of itself, the state, the nation, and the country.
Needs proof
That personal attack is totally unnecessary.
Ideological attacks, nationalistic attacks, personal attacks, and ethnic attacks are not what this site is for. We ban such accounts. No more of this please.
Such boycotts and backlashes are short-lived. If you look at past boycotts — against Dolce & Gabanna who made a racist commercial, or against the Japanese prime minister visiting war crime shrines — then you also see that after a while people forget about the boycott and continue to buy things. None of those were government-instigated either: in fact the government actively called on people to calm down. There was for example a restaurant in Shenyang which put on an anti-Japanese banner, and the police told him to take it down because it's too insulting to Japan.
So yes celebrities absolutely have a choice to wait until the fuss is over.
That doesn't seem like it's solely the choice of consumers/various celebrities.
In fact, nationalism is a thing in many Asian countries. In South Korea, there was recently a backlash against a K-drama for depicting that certain cultural elements may have originated from China. I don't know anything about the historical facts surrounding that case, but this is an example of how strong nationalism can be in east-Asian countries, including China.
Given this track record, why do you believe that this time is any different?
No it's the government.
Access has been heavily restricted so far, so I’m eager to see the results of China’s new-found forthrightness on the issue.
If it’s as China says: show us.
The point of forced labour in these situations is not the efficient picking of cotton but as a form of punishment.
> western narrative of forced labor cotton
Are we calling everything we disagree with a "narrative" now?
We don't have all the facts on Xinjiang because journalism is prevented there - which in and of itself should make us suspicious.
My comment is not a statement on whether I agree or disagree.
"Narrative" is a neutral word. Something can be a narrative even if it's true and I agree with it.
Not necessarily: a representation of a particular situation or process in such a way as to reflect or conform to an overarching set of aims or values
Punishment isn't the right word. The goal is to obliterate Uyghur village life and shift them to a legible lifestyle that is integrated into the Chinese mass market. Having them e.g. pick cotton, aside from being a convenient way to pay off well-connected supporters, makes the Uyghurs dependent on a regime-friendly company and also gives them more income to buy the same goods and consume the same media as the rest of China.
ETA: I'm confused as to whether this comment pissed off a bunch of wumao or pissed off a bunch of Americans who somehow managed to misread it as praising China. An explanation of a bad behavior isn't a justification for it, but something that can help provide insight into why it's happening and possible pressure points to stop it.
Implicit coercion has been used to shift Uyghur people into the market economy. The visible income of poor Uyghurs is in fact the metric that local officials are being evaluated on for performance.
So I really don't see how any of your points make sense, about companies being private and all. The truth is there's no democracy in China.
Anything that comes out of there must be taken with a truckload of salt. Kind of like the ridiculous Covid numbers, that put the total number of cases in China lower than countries with a population 500x smaller than theirs.
Which implies that they haven't read their country's criminal law (which requires all able-bodied prisoners to work) or didn't think through it's implications (of course there's forced labor cotton, the same way there's forced labor rice, forced labor coal and forced labor textiles.) Mechanization doesn't negate that, since being forced to operate the cotton-picking machines or a sewing machine is still forced labor.
But part of the blame lies with the "Western narrative" not trying very hard to be believable. E.g. using "Xinjiang" as a shorthand for "Uyghur forced labor" when 1) there are other ethnic groups in Xinjiang 2) forced labor affects at most a few percent of the population (to be clear, that's still hundreds of thousands of people) and 3) it's not limited to Xinjiang, but applies to all of China (as I said, prisoners are required by law to work.)
In the West, Western reporting on China operates in easy mode: hardly anyone has the background knowledge to notice imprecise or even incorrect reporting. But Chinese people are going to notice a disconnect with their daily lived experience. That disconnect can be explained, but I've yet to see a Western journalist do a good job explaining it, or even realize that there's something to explain.
The way you emphasised your comment as merely mentioning facts is making it obvious that you are selectively picking facts in favour of some narrative.
Care to mention how coordinated the "support XinJiang cotton" statements are? Like all the "support Hong Kong Police" posts before? I can also say I'm only commenting on the facts surrounding the situation.
It's interesting you mentioned Dilraba. If China can threaten Uighurs overseas, I wonder how one inside the country can wilfully oppose any propaganda.
I mentioned the facts that I know of, and that I think add something to the discussion (i.e. not things that people haven't already heard a million times).
Since you believe I missed mentioning important facts, I implore you to elaborate them. This is not meant as sarcasm, I'm truly curious about what you can add.
For example, you say that the statements are coordinated. Can you show examples and data?
On the other hand, I reckon the average Chinese person on the street hears about corporate boycotts like this and just thinks: you Westerners are a bloody bunch of hypocrites. This week the Georgia legislature disenfranchised innumerable black people and there were two mass shootings. In the past 12 months alone, hundreds of thousands of people have died in America alone in large part due to malignant political influence, and a sitting President incited a riot in the Capitol.
You can see how the issue devolves into crass nationalism pretty quickly.
Anyone with any sense has been warning about Western countries allowing or causing the erosion of their own soft power in recent decades, culminating most recently with the awful person that was Donald Trump. It’s well and truly coming home to roost now.
I say this as a citizen of one of America’s closest allies.
An average Chinese person on the street doesn't think, he is preoccupied with making a living, and has no time to watch nor the Radio Free Asia, nor People's Daily.
And if given chance to immigrate, and money, most will not give a f__k what is to happen to China, or America tomorrow.
Locals would agonize much less about the fate of their country than idle intellectuals in the West, as they are smart enough to see that they have zero stake in it. There is nothing in life an average Chinese gets from his country, and nor would he want to give anything back to it.
Consider the fact that China raised millions out of poverty. Consider the fact that they're one of the few countries able to stand up to the US. Consider the fact China has the most opportunities out of the few chinese-majority countries in the world. It's a great deal for them.
> Consider the fact that China raised millions out of poverty.
Nobody raised anybody out of poverty. The only ones they have to thank for raising them out of poverty are themselves. It was that party in the first place which plunged China into the abyss.
Telling that you can only have nice living because of the party is the true denigration.
> That's quite some level of denigration and generalization on the average chinese person you've put out.
An average Chinese person has more enough reasons to hate the country with passion that idle Western intellectuals. I myself know many people personally whose relative were killed by communists, and some even know where children of those murderers live today.
Be grateful for that??? Hundred curses
Do you honestly think that in 1970s rural china without investments into infrastructure you'd still be able to pull yourself out of poverty? These things require huge organized effort.
Not sure where you got the idea that the average chinese should be grateful to the party. I've said nothing about that, just pointing out the advantages of the average Chinese person.
This is 100% a result of * government policies * technology * international cooperation
Hell, there is even a name for the project! The Great Leap Forward.
Yes, what's happing in Xinjiang is terrible. But it does not take away from the success of Deng's policies in transforming China. Make no mistake - most Chinese backs the party, even thou they know it has also done some terrible things. They do that because of the financial success of the policies. It's also true, that there is currently no alternative to the party in China. Secondly there are many opinions inside the party both for and against Xi Jinping. It's not black and white.
https://homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk/2021/01/29/media-factshe... (£250 for five years, plus the effectively mandatory £600/year NHS surcharge, per person, plus any additional test or permit fees)
As someone who is from a small country, which can only be a kingmaker in the context of the big powers ala the US and China:
You western folks are being played hard by these narratives the western institutions are spouting. The chinese are reacting like this simply because they feel they're being wronged, and they've been wronged before.
The US's mission to spread democracy is not going to succeed if people feel they're being lied to. Hell, they'll even reject it.
Ever heard of countries justifying their invasions of other countries as 'liberation'? It's a similar thing. Get the public to be on your side by reframing and aligning your foreign policy.